10-12-2003 01:24									#1
	How to use Privateer effectively? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

When privateers come into play, the only ship that has a defense lower than privateer's attack is privateer itself. All other ships, including backward caravels, have a defense at least 2. That is, without bombardments, it will cost the lost of at least 1 privateer to take out 1 enemy ship on average. And privateer itself hasn't offensive bombardment.

Is there a good way to use them? Or privateers are just useless?

	10-12-2003 01:59									#2
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I vote for useless. Who on earth wants to build an expensive non-transport, non-bombard attack=1 sea unit outside of the ancient era?

	10-12-2003 03:13									#3
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Just buy conquests where privateers have attack of 2 so can thrash on galleons and frigates ... not to mention a R-0 bombard value of 3 (lord knows we all like to attack a privateer).

Their usefullness improves greatly in MP too ...

	10-12-2003 03:35									#4
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quote: How to use Privateer effectively?

In packs.

In Conquests, the zero-range bombard thing will help you a bit on defense if you have a stack of privateers. Having a stack of them means that you will be able to finish the job if your first attack fails. You may be able to replenish losses via the enslavement ability.

True, privateers are going to lose as often as they win. But they're not supposed to be awesome combat units. Their purpose is to hamper your opponents' shipping without actually going to war. If you don't think that's a worthwhile goal, then privateers aren't going to be worth much to you.

One other privateer quirk: if a civ with a ship UU kills a privateer with said UU, their GA is triggered. Just something to be aware of.

-Arrian

	10-12-2003 03:46									#5
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I never used this, but others liked it:

make one and use it as a lure. Have stronger ships in the tile to handle the combat. They claim that the AI will see the privateer and come a running. I don't know if this is true or not.

	10-12-2003 04:19									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I never used this, but others liked it: make one and use it as a lure. Have stronger ships in the tile to handle the combat. They claim that the AI will see the privateer and come a running. I don't know if this is true or not.

as in, to force a war? that would be interesting ... but doesn't seem like something they'd build in to the AI

Also I don't get this "expensive" thing with privateers that people still yap about ... when playing the comp you tend to see a lot of galleys and early ships roaming around that are quite easy targets for privateers and upon winning, there's that wonderful chance to spawn another privateer. Not sure the % but it happens quite often in my games ... great if you want to create a blockade for sea trade or even to just keep a ship close to enemy coastal cities to spy on troop movement, etc without getting yelled at to withdraw from their territory.

	10-12-2003 13:50									#7
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With defense 1, I don't think privateers can hold up when being attacked, even with defensive bombardment. And when AI has spare attack ship, the age of privateer has ended already.

I had tried to use privateer in packs of 3 ships, and only target I have hope to sink is backward AI's lone caravel or galleon. Strong AIs' ships always move in stacks (2 to 3 frigates and a galleon), I can do nothing to those stacks with privateers.

Hampering opponent without war sounds good, but, IMO, is not actually good. If I'm stronger than him and I'm currently out of war, why wouldn't I devote those shields into direct attack force and declare war on him? If I'm stronger but I'm in another war, I would still devote shields to direct attack force to speed up current war, then declare a new war on him. If I'm not stronger than him, I'd better build up my defensive and counter attack force. In any situation, I don't like waste shields to those can-do-nothing-but-be-destroyed privateers.

IMO, privateers should get beefed up or it's pretty useless.

	10-12-2003 17:30									#8
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I saw a post which said that enemy ships target privateers and tried the idea of including one in a stack (with vanilla Civ3).

I don't think the plan was to trigger a war without being the aggressor, rather it was to fool the enemy into making attacks which they would be bound to lose.

Anyway it did not work for me. No enemy ships made a bee line for the stack including the privateer.

That idea not seeming to work, the privateer went back to being a unit I have found no use for.

I tend not to build frigates either - the window before the advent of more powerful ships being rather narrow. In game playing terms it would make more sense for them to be up-gradeable (at least to ironclad if not on to destroyer).

Maybe it stretches the imagination to think of the transformations required. But no more so than to go from a galley to a galleon to a transport!

	10-12-2003 19:15									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian One other privateer quirk: if a civ with a ship UU kills a privateer with said UU, their GA is triggered. Just something to be aware of. -Arrian

Thank you for that information. The English have become one of my favourite civs in C3C, so it's likely going to be relevant in one of my near future games.

	15-12-2003 04:41									#10
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quite a good use of them is to stick 1 or 2 on the same square as a frigate.... that way they cant be attacked

	15-12-2003 05:51									#11
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They don't seem to be attacked when you stack them with other units except for the submarine (in Conquests, that is).

I've used a submarine and privateer to start a war but I'm not sure I shouldn't feel bad about it.

	15-12-2003 21:59									#12
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Some comments about privateers. These may be familar to some, but most new players will be surprised by privateers.

A. They are designed to be minor pieces to add some variety to the game.
They are not given values to represent their actual RL threat. They are intentionally given too weak Offensive power.

B. AI will always go after them if they are in range.

C. If you win, you do destroy the piece and don't start a war, BUT you do increase negative opinion of AI vs you.

D. New with C3C is enslave
So if you win, often you will gain a new regular privateer. This helps adjust the cost of using these ships.

E. Once you start attacking with privateers, AI will start stacking and trying to stay just out of your range for weak ships.


F. Suggestions on how to play with them:
1. use a stack of 3+
2. have a protecting vessel, i.e. frigate
3. expect to just harrass and not control seas with them
4. use to harrass an AI at war with a "friend" you want to help but not join in MA versus AI.

G. Suggested adjustment of values in Editor to have more fun with them. Naval vessel settings:
Vessel A.D.M B.R.F [i]
Galley 1.1.3 0.0.0 [i]no change
Caravel 1.2.3 0.0.0 no change
Galleon 1.2.4 0.0.0 no change
Frigate 4.3.4 2.1.2 changed, defaults are 2.2.4 2.1.2
Ironclad 5.5.4 4.1.2 changed. Defaults are 4.4.4 4.1.2
Privateer 3.2.5 1.1.1 changed. Defaults are 2.1.3 0.0.0
Man-o-War 5.3.4 3.1.2 changed. Defaults are 3.2.4 3.1.2
Sub 8.6.3 0.0.0 changed. Defaults are 8.4.3 0.0.0
NSub 12.6.4 0.0.0 changed. Defaults are 6.4.3 0.0.0

They are weakened Frigates and should be able to beat most caravels and since have less armor, should go faster than Frigates. Subs had to be adjusted so ironclads don't have too much advantage. Remember "ironclads" in this game are not like the image, i.e. a monitor which should have values like 4.4.1 but are iron covered Frigates, thus current values.

Enjoy

== PF

	15-12-2003 23:58									#13
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In my current game, a seafaring AI civ (Carthage) has been using them, rather effectively, actually.

Chinese and Greek (me) ships have been traveling around the Carthaginian coast. Occasionally, a privateer will pop out of a Carthaginian city and hit a Chinese or Greek ship, and if it wins, dart back in. Well, only if it's hitting a Chinese ship, as those actual sail inside Carthage's borders. Mine stay out farther, especially since they started using the privateers. I did lose 1 frigate. It's all good. After all, I did invade them and steal two luxury supplies from them.

-Arrian

p.s. IIRC, in this game I've only built 1 privateer, and I lost it in it's first battle (I attacked vs. a 2-frigate ministack. I had little choice, as I didn't see them until most of my movement points were used, so there was no chance of fleeing).

	16-12-2003 02:12									#14
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I like privateers. My neighboring civ has a HUGE navy, and I wanted to knock it down a few peg before our inevitable war (they are always attacking me).

Personally, I think frigates should be upgradable to ironclads, since, historicaly, that's what they did.

	16-12-2003 02:18									#15
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Chegitz,

Heh, that's the greatest new idea I have seen about ancient naval wars. Of course frigates should be upgradeable. All you need to do is:
1. change editor settings,
2. replace the current ironclad image with a frigate wearing an iron coat.

-- PF

	16-12-2003 04:28									#16
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I found a webpage with many ironclad pictures and it's worth noting that very few of them look like "upgraded" frigates.

Ironclads

	16-12-2003 11:11									#17
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Yeah, Privateers in Conquests are great. Enslavement works nice.

Can you say privateer fleets?

	16-12-2003 12:12									#18
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I dont have c3c but I think privateers are a nice component in civ3. I use them for scouting (within AI territory) and just for the plain fun of it. I only wish they had a retreat ability.

	16-12-2003 21:54									#19
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Interesting seagoing ironclads:

color image, HMS Warrior, sail and steam
http://www.hmswarrior.org/images/hbounda.jpg

Naval ages and history intro
http://www.wideopenwest.com/~jenkin...ads/foreign.htm

best black and white images "First Ironclads"
http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/P...1_engl_top.html
most interesting may be these:
French LaGloria, combo wood and iron
British, Warrior, steam was only slightly faster than sail
Russian Pervenetz, floating battery
British Agincourt, 5 sail ironclad
French Le Tigre, ram ironclad
Peruvian ironclad in floating dock

American Ironclads
http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/P...ds_1_d.top.html
http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/P...1_engl_top.html

Enjoy

== PF

	16-12-2003 22:05									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me I've used a submarine and privateer to start a war but I'm not sure I shouldn't feel bad about it.

Where's Stuie?
You can start a war with a submarine (or even better, a submarine blockade) and no privateers, so I wouldn't feel bad about it...

As for privateers, I agree that in C3C they are useful when used in stacks. If you have a stack of privateers, your losses in battle can be offset by the gains from enslavement. Because of their unique abilities of hidden nationality and enslavement, it wouldn't be fair if they had better attack stats. Players would then be tempted to use them instead of Frigates in battle, which is not the intended purpuse of the privateer.

	16-12-2003 22:54									#21
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Alexman,

Easy fix to temptation to use privateers instead of Frigates. Make them more expensive.

My suggested values have 1 less Off, 1 less Def, and 1 less bombardment vs Frigates, and they are very vulnerable to Man-o-War's. This is why I increased values for Frigate and ironclads, etc. They would not stand vs ironclads. They should be able to take on galleys/caravels and stacks could handle galleons, but they could not stand up against Frigates and other naval defenders.

AI usually protects early transports with Frigates so hidden nationality should not be an advantage to the human. I noticed in scenario Napolean, British AI used a lot of privateers. So AI has no problem using these units to attack unprotected early transports.

Enslavement does not work all the time, but rather often. New enslaved unit is regular and not veteran. What would be the result of attacking a Frigate-Caravel pair with privateers?

IN OFFENSE
Frigate def == 3
Caravel def == 2
Privateer off == 3

Privateer1 vs Frigate1
50:50 odds
Privateer2 vs Caravel
60:40 odds

Best 2 Privateers eliminate a Frigate and Caravel.
Worst 2 Privateers lost and takes 2 more to eliminate Frigate and Caravel.

Frigates cost 60 ea. Caravel is 40. Increase cost of Privateer to 70.
So if Frigate+Caravel equals 100, and 2 Privateers cost 140. Splitting evenly battles, means a NEGATIVE cost of 40 to use Privateers.
Note the regular privateers from enslavement seem to have very weak battle outcomes. I suspect there may be another variable here than just hit points.

IN OFFENSE
Frigate offense == 4
Caravel offense == 1
Privateer defense == 2

Odds of Frigate knocking off Privateer are 2:1. Caravels would not attack. So to use Privateers would be double negative. Defensive odds would be 2/4 instead of 3/4 for frigate and would cost 10 more.

Less offense, less defense, more cost == little temptation to use Privateers instead of Frigates.

What do you think?

-- PF

	16-12-2003 23:22									#22
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I don't generally build Privateers. The few that I did build usually died quickly.

However, I have seen the AI use them 'sort of' effectively.
1. A couple of times, a neiboring civ whom I was at peace built them and bombarded some of my infrastructure. This didn't really irk me because I was industrious and could replace the damage in 1 turn--it did peeve me a little and moved that civ up on my 'Whom shall I conquer next' list. I knew to whom they belonged because they would strike, then duck back into a city.

2. I was in a time of relative peace w/ everyone and was using unescorted Transports to move some Settlers to a new continent. I saw a Privateer hanging around and was concerned for my Transport. It never attacked, but it did make me think twice about sending-out unescorted Transports.

Since the AI never (once non-transport, fighting ships are available) sends-out unescorted transport ships, I don't think that the human player would ever get the benefit of that tactic.

	17-12-2003 00:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r I knew to whom they belonged because they would strike, then duck back into a city.

They also move only during that civ’s “turn cycle”, which can be another way to identify the owner.

	17-12-2003 03:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by alexman As for privateers, I agree that in C3C they are useful when used in stacks. If you have a stack of privateers, your losses in battle can be offset by the gains from enslavement. Because of their unique abilities of hidden nationality and enslavement, it wouldn't be fair if they had better attack stats. Players would then be tempted to use them instead of Frigates in battle, which is not the intended purpuse of the privateer.

Sadly, you can NOT enslave enough privateers to offset your casualty.

Let's say, 3 veteran privateers strike an unguarded veteran galleon or caravel. Using the combat calculator, the probability of sinking enemy galleon is 97.3%, but the expected casualty is 0.726 privateer (assuming no promotion), and expected enslavement is only 0.324, net loss 0.402 privateer, or 0.413 privateer (worth 20.65 shields) per successful sinking. In fact it is more than that, as the enslaved one is regular, not veteran, and promotion of galleon makes the situation worse, too.

Then let's consider 3 veteran frigates attacking a veteran galleon. Frigate has the same attack value as privateer, but frigate can bombard. Thus it'd best use two frigates to bombard the galleon, and the third one to attack. By this method, the probability of sinking galleon is 80.3%, the expected casualty is 0.197 frigate, or 0.245 frigate (worth 14.7 shields) per successful sinking. There's no promotion here, so this statistic is a solid one.

	17-12-2003 03:34									#25
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So you are saying that your losses in Frigate shields are on average 3/4 the losses in Privateer shields. Is that so bad? Frigates are supposed to be better than Privateers in combat. If you are at war, it's better to use Frigates. If you are at peace, use Privateers.

If I had to make a change to Privateers, I would give them free maintenance. Enslaved Privateers have free maintenance anyway. And it makes sense in terms of realism too.

	17-12-2003 03:45									#26
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Well, that is because frigates are not much good, either. I just didn't fully realise how weak it is before that post.
Anyway, I like your suggestion, alexman. I'm now satisfied.

	17-12-2003 03:56									#27
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Alexman,

I gave up on using Privateers as default values did not make sense and it was too annoying difficult to maintain custom settings across patches.
But minimum changes I would make are
1) your free maintenance idea, and
2) increase defense to Caravel.
Since they were either captured Caravels/Galleons or weaker Frigates, it does not make sense they would only have the defense of a galley.

I don't play with adjusted values suggested in this post. I was just suggesting they might make for an interesting scenario that would more the privateer a more valuable unit.

With default values, they are only useful when you're ahead and are looking for a bit of variety in game play. I can't see how it is cost effective to use them.

== PF

	17-12-2003 05:35									#28
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The one thing I don’t see in this thread is the main historical reason for privateers: commerce raiders! There are all these comparisons of value to the other ships, but what about the cargo? The AI seldom sends out a transport that isn’t transporting something! That caravel you just sank might have had 3 knights on it, or even a settler or two. I kind of wish it would say what went down with the ship. I personally build lots of privateers. I use them to explore, hunt barbarian galleys & when I get enough, I send them to choke points or obvious shipping lanes in stacks of six or more. That seems to be enough to take the 2-frigate/1-galley stacks the AI likes to use. Remember most of my privateers are vet or elites. I use the captured regulars to hunt barbs and get experience.

	17-12-2003 07:02									#29
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I have a lot of fun with Frigate/Privateer stacks, especially when war breaks out and the Frigates can bombard to weaken the prey for the Privateers to finish off. You get many baby Privateers that way. I had about 20 Privateers in one game. I only built 5 or 6 of them, the rest were free and free of maintenance.

	18-12-2003 00:12									#30
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal They also move only during that civ’s “turn cycle”, which can be another way to identify the owner.

But is this so bad vs. the AI? Besides, knowing who is using the privateer doesn't even matter anyway, you can't (in game terms) justify a war because of marauding privateers, even though you know or suspect which opponent is using them.

The one thing that bothers me about using Privateers is the AI's uncanny ability to hunt them down.