20-05-2001 05:35									#1
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I want to try a more positive thread: Which scenarios do you consider to have been breakthroughs in scenario design? And why?

You don't have to limit yourself to technical innovations or use of events; use of art, sounds, scale -anything that set a new standard is valid.

I'll start with Harlan Thompsons' "Lord of the Rings", for a number of reasons:

1. It was the first detailed scenario following a story line from a work of fiction, and it used individual characters as well as military units.

2. It incorporated photo reduction style artwork.

3. It made original use of the rules text, eg. Bilbo as the ringbearer (sub flag) and the ring as a nuclear missile.

	20-05-2001 06:26									#2
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Jay Bee's quest for Eldorado comes to mind. A mission scenario, where you have no cities, but must fight the elements to win. Of course, Red Front, with it's innovative use of the go to command, and my all time favorite, Kull's Anciet empires, the early empires, which told the early history of man so well, and was one of the few scenarios that I played with all the different tribes, as the multiple events files made each race different.

------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

	20-05-2001 10:02									#3
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[*]Red Front (& Second Front)
-First scenario to go on successful full scale complexity. The events, art work, and just how it was structured was very innovative.

[*]Pelopponesian War (sp?)
-I thought that the huge battle on a small map was very nice. And that's next to the beautiful art work. Alex is brilliant when it comes to the art work.

[*]Spartacus
-Wow. Quests, art work, events, stories, the whole thing. Very innovative and fun.

[*]Kobayashi's Star Trek Scenarios
-I like these because they successfully make space warfare possible on the Civilization II engine. Master of Orion was nice as well.

[*]SubWars
-Bernd, I know it's not out yet and won't be for a few months, but this is another sign that I await this wonderful looking scenario. You can tell the underwater interface will be unique.

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Techumseh, this is indeed a more positive thread.

By the way, Techumseh, I just looked at your home page. So you're behind The Crade of Civilization? Excellent site. Don't know why I didn't know you were the webmaster before.

	20-05-2001 10:20									#4
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Quest based scenarios are very innovative. Treasure Island, a deeply quest based scenario i'm working on now is gonna change Civ2 RPG history.

	20-05-2001 10:30									#5
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Actually, it's really William Keenans' site. It was started as part of a project to cooperatively make ToT scenarios by 4 individuals: Kull, Mike Daumen, William and me. William agreed to do the site, the rest really hasn't got off the ground.

	20-05-2001 15:22									#6
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Shay Yates Roberts' "Pirates of the Caribbean" scenario was something very new. The idea wasn't simply to conquer your opponents, but to raid and plunder. I liked the events that give a player cash when they blow up an enemy ship and plundering enemy settlements. The timeline that created new pirates as they historically appeared was also a nice touch. The map was superb.

Salutations,
Exile

	22-05-2001 09:27									#7
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*cough*bump*cough*

	23-05-2001 11:40									#8
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I'm surprised no one mentioned River War yet, I thought it was a fine example of what a historical scenario should be: enjoyable, winnable, and informative.

	24-05-2001 10:33									#9
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Ahh, but that's not the criteria, Cal. It's about breakthroughs - innovations that set a new standard in scenarios. What was it about Riverwar that had never been done before?

I have another suggestion: "Slash and Burn" by Dan Sheltema (?). It was based more on hunting and fishing than warfare. That, plus a tech tree based on primitive hunter-gatherer technologies, made it more of an anthropological than a war scenario. The use of terrain graphics and sounds established a new standard for atmosphere. It really felt like being in the rain forest. It was an inspiration for J.B.s' "Eldorado."

	24-05-2001 12:51									#10
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...It's innovation was in its ability to be fun while using "tired and true" scenario structuring.

Besides... I don't think I'd ever seen the "build a road to where you need to conquer because the terrain costs many move points" strategy before.

I thought Eldorado was too easy... I survived the jungle and captured three cities on my very first try.

Last edited by Cal on 24-05-2001 at 14:04

	25-05-2001 01:44									#11
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To justify having Riverwar here:

It used units to signal the proximity to Khartoum and start defenses and the river closes up during the winter months, so that is innovative. Also the time/setting of the scenario makes it different

	28-05-2001 05:20									#12
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Whether RiverWar is an innovative scenario or not is not for me to decide, and I wisely will keep myself away from that discussion.

However, please let us not be distracted by this interlude and abandon such an interesting topic.

I personally think that some MPS scenarios were of great innovative influence. And then, mostly the ones at CiC. Napoleon was an excellent scenario. WW1 was ok, too. But it was the whole scenario disk taken as a whole, I just mean the scenarios, not the new tools, that triggered a new generation of scenarios. Before, it used to be an exception that a UNITS.GIF was included with a scenario. Afterwards, no scenario was complete without.

The FW scenarios were also of great importance, but were somewhat less innovative, in its pure form.

P.S. what do you guys think of my new avatar?

	28-05-2001 15:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Allard HS what do you guys think of my new avatar?

It's Alexander of Macedon, isn't it? From a mosaic, but I can't remember which one...

	28-05-2001 18:11									#14
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Nice avatar. The mosaic was found in Pompeji, if I´m correct

	30-05-2001 01:00									#15
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The mosaic shows the battle of Issus in 333 BC between Alexander III. the Great and Darius III Codomannus. It is 5.82 metres long and 3.13 metres high, consisting of one and a half million pieces. It was found in the house of the Faun in Pompeii in 1832 and today is in Naples.
It might be the only known picture of the Persian war standart. It could be hanging on a lance, but unfortunately, most of it is gone.
Apart from being one of the most impressive mosaics of all times - the destructive expression in Alexander's eyes, and the fear in the face of Darius - I think I also read somewhere that it is the largest early Roman mosaic.
It is said to show an accurate representation of Alexander's face.

I wanted to have the face of Darius for my Avatar, but I've no idea how I should do this - only weird screens appear when I want to.

	30-05-2001 03:50									#16
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Also, Herr Härtel, Sie haben natürlich recht. Ich wusste schon das Sie das Antwort haben sollten... Although it is the most popular depiction of Alexander, I chose it anyway, because I believe it is also the most impressive one.

One and a half million pieces, eh? How impressive, and it wasn't even built by Greeks, but by those Barbarians instead...
Of course, it was copied from a Greek painting, but still...

Just a few questions from one ignorent person to the all-knowing one, why do you call Darius "Codomannus"? I never heard him being called that.. And, as far as my Greek dictionary is concerned, it doesn't even mean anything!

So, you want an avatar of Darius? What about this?

	30-05-2001 19:34									#17
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quote: Just a few questions from one ignorent person to the all-knowing one, why do you call Darius "Codomannus"? I never heard him being called that.. And, as far as my Greek dictionary is concerned, it doesn't even mean anything!

I don't know what Codomannus (or Kodomannos) means, I have however read this name a couple of times. Maybe it is supposed to be the 'boyhood name' of Darius, like Ochus was the original name of Darius II, Asices was the one of Artaxerxes II, Arses that of Artaxerxes IV etc. etc.
Your Avatar is exactly what I had in mind, however I don't know how to add it...

	30-05-2001 20:35									#18
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Stefan, save the pic on your HD, then go to the control panel. There is an option somewhere where you can upload the pic you want to have as avatar. The second option is to bring it online and use a link, but the first option is better in my eyes...

	08-06-2001 15:10									#19
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A few years ago when Michael Jeszenka was very active in Civ2, his Sword of Shannara was a fairly innovative scenario - especially with his expansive use of sounds. I playtested that scenario and found that it immersed me into its "world" more than many other scenario's ever have.

Mike also was one of the first designers to advocate higher unit stats to put firepower and hitpoints to better use. Although as of late more scenarios have units with smaller stats, for a long while large numbers was the key, and as I recall Mike was one of the first to do this. I know this isn't breakthrough designers, but he used that in just about all of his scenario's so I figured that I'd just point out him instead.

John Ellis' Bonaparte was also innovative in his use of invisible fortresses in nearly all land terrain squares (and a few sea squares as well). Not only did this better-simulate early 19th century warfare IMO, but it also gave the AI a better chance (how often do you see the AI stack its entire army on one square just to be slaughtered in your next turn).

I thought that Allard's Boer War scenario's use of having barbed wire and blockhouses appear along your supply routes was a nice feature as well.

These are just a few examples that I can think of right now - but they make for a more interesting read than a *bump!* message to get this thread moving again

Thanks,

JP

	08-06-2001 17:55									#20
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quote: Just a few questions from one ignorent person to the all-knowing one, why do you call Darius "Codomannus"? I never heard him being called that.. And, as far as my Greek dictionary is concerned, it doesn't even mean anything!

Uh, thats a latin word. The dead givaway is the -us ending. Few greek words end in -us. if it were -os you'd have an arguement. Anyway, I looked it up at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ under tools for those interested, and it says that Codomannus is the surname of Darius. Mabey its from the Persian, or mabey thats what was handed down, but it is evidently used.

Ioanes

Oh, and I like John Ellis' game Hellas as a great dipiction of the greek city-states and the Persian invasion.