10-12-2003 10:02									#31
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And, one more thing:

BEERS FOR MIKE!!!

	10-12-2003 10:16									#32
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I do hope the combat calc changs will be an OPTION. I'm one who likes the randomness of battles right now.

(I mean, afterall, look at the Zulu beating the Brits for one example many throughout history.)

	10-12-2003 10:21									#33
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Good to see Firaxis can do something without making it a PR disaster

	10-12-2003 10:22									#34
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Thanks a bunch Jesse et al.!

	10-12-2003 10:33									#35
	Re: Re: Civ III: Conquests Patch Notice Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither To me, that sounds like... HOLY SH!T, they've just changed the whole game. Better not fall behind in warfare tech...

It sounds like that yes... It is probably like an increeament of hitpoints, without loing any hitpoints if you dont lose at least 50% of the new multiplier...
It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

	10-12-2003 10:45									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Great news!

	10-12-2003 10:47									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good news. Corruption and doble gpt bug fixed.

I noticed that most of the fixes are housekeeping type stuff.

I hope the final update will include AI tweaks.

	10-12-2003 10:49									#38
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(Thank-you Jesse!)

	10-12-2003 10:50									#39
	Re: Re: Re: Civ III: Conquests Patch Notice Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos It sounds like that yes... It is probably like an increeament of hitpoints, without loing any hitpoints if you dont lose at least 50% of the new multiplier... It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Imagine how that would magnify things, if it is as that. Forget sometimes taking a Spearman-defended city with a few Warriors. Not to mention, people already complain about Cavalry vs Musketmen as it is. Test it out by upping all the units hitpoints now. I did that way back. It all but removes the randomness factor where the higher number nearly always wins.

Now what I'm HOPING it really is, is something that might help against those epic spearmen that somehow defend and kill eight midieval infantry in one turn, without taking a single HP of damage. Something about those "god units" they seem to do it over and over again, turn after turn for no apparent reason. The odds are there, but it happens too much to be true.

	10-12-2003 10:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG better yet, spare me the agony, Jesse, please post a screen of the BUSH world

BUSH world? Is that the President, the shrubbery, or the hair?

	10-12-2003 11:07									#41
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excellent, smithers.

	10-12-2003 11:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 BUSH world? Is that the President, the shrubbery, or the hair?

Well one would be a world with lots of post-armageddon desert and the others would be just jungles ...

But wait, isn't 'dubya out the door soon?

	10-12-2003 11:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander Well one would be a world with lots of post-armageddon desert and the others would be just jungles ... But wait, isn't 'dubya out the door soon?

I was hoping for the hair. I wouldn't count dubya out yet. He "won" once, he can do it again.

(Dubya always sounded like a Russian word to me. Maybe one of our Russian friends can tell us if it means anything.)

	10-12-2003 12:34									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 (Dubya always sounded like a Russian word to me. Maybe one of our Russian friends can tell us if it means anything.)

Means: wreckless maniac warmonger.

* Master Zen ducks


btw, any editor changes? (or plans?) I've been kind of hoping for an option to set diplomatic and attitude levels.

	10-12-2003 12:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by JesseSmith Combat System "Less Streaky" The Change was having the random number generator (rng) calculate the Results 4 times instead of 1. Possible Outcomes: AttackerLoses, AttackerWins If there is a tie, it retries. This forces the combat system to be more accurate and less "streaky"

More accurate...

Cavalry stop dead when they hit rifles. Expect to lose 5 cav to kill 2 defending rifles when attacking fortified rifles in a size 7 city. Expect to lose as many or more knights as you kill in pikes during Medieval warfare.

Walls will be severe impediments to any attack, but especially fast attacker blitzes.

Artillery will be the God of War, indeed.

Offensive warfare as a Republic, or God forbid, a democracy would be out of the question without overwhelming odds. Just defending yourself as a democracy could become a nightmare.

All I can say is, wow. Then I would ask, why? Surely there are better ways to fix the mythical tank vs spear situation than completely altering the game balance from dot.

	10-12-2003 12:44									#46
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Whohooo! My Christmas vacation is saved! God bless you, Firaxis! Three thumbs up!

	10-12-2003 13:18									#47
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Good news indeed...except there's no mention of the rr bug.

	10-12-2003 13:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 (Dubya always sounded like a Russian word to me. Maybe one of our Russian friends can tell us if it means anything.)

"Dub" means oak tree. "Dubya" is not a Russian word.

	10-12-2003 13:44									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Wow...I'm very impressed. Kudos to Jesse and especially Mike B! I'm also interested to see how the 'less random' combat works out. Seems to me that this is a pretty significant change that might need to be an option...or perhaps a randomness 'slider' to select from 1 roll to N rolls (re-rolling ties) with a default at 4 rolls.

	10-12-2003 13:50									#50
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My reservations about averaged combat aside... yes, MikeB and the rest of the crews at BA and Firaxis do deserve some kudos.

	10-12-2003 14:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph "Dub" means oak tree. "Dubya" is not a Russian word.

That helps. The part that sounded Russian to me was the -ya which is the backwards R in their alphabet. If the -ya doesn't modify the root word then I guess Dubya would be a nonsensical word in Russian (like Oakya makes no sense in English). Thanks.

	10-12-2003 14:15									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither More accurate... Cavalry stop dead when they hit rifles. Expect to lose 5 cav to kill 2 defending rifles when attacking fortified rifles in a size 7 city. Expect to lose as many or more knights as you kill in pikes during Medieval warfare. Walls will be severe impediments to any attack, but especially fast attacker blitzes. Artillery will be the God of War, indeed. Offensive warfare as a Republic, or God forbid, a democracy would be out of the question without overwhelming odds. Just defending yourself as a democracy could become a nightmare. All I can say is, wow. Then I would ask, why? Surely there are better ways to fix the mythical tank vs spear situation than completely altering the game balance from dot.

nye raises some very good points.

I will have to see this new system in action to see if it really does make the game more balanced, however, one has to admit that those "streaks" were not always to your favor.

	10-12-2003 14:27									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Is that maniac in your avatar you, MZ? Oh, and before you ask, the buxom blonde in mine is not me, and neither my wife.

	10-12-2003 14:53									#54
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First of all



This beta patch was always a great idea given the extent of a couple of problems (though I notice MWIA is still trying to imply they were minor 'issues' that may not ever have been fixed ), but nonetheless I admit I did not think the chances were high. I am rarely so happy to be mistaken.

	10-12-2003 15:01									#55
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I didn't want to include the 'however' in a well deserved congratulatory post.

However, I am slightly perplexed by the combat change. I think we have all got used to the more variable combat results, which I thought were just due to the HP system in this game (and no firepower). Are Firaxis admiting there was always a problem with the way results were calculated, or have they just tried to alter something to counteract slightly the variability that the Civ3 model introduced?

From Jesse's remarks it seems like the second. Care should be taken however........we have all got used to Civ3 combat, and I don't think it is unbalanced. Sure sometimes units lose annoyingly, but people attack with strength in depth accordingly. Overall given the support model here the slightly more variable combat results have proven, over time, to not be the unbalancing force for evil that it was imagined they would be 2 years ago.

Also the timing puzzles me. Many people whinged about this for months and months. I think they were wrong and Firaxis were right (on this issue )........so why alter it now?

Only thing I can think of is to make SID even harder!

Please Jesse if you get chance provide us with whatever perspective you can on your thoughts with regard to this issue.

	10-12-2003 15:20									#56
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thanks a lot for the beta patch!
thanks for listening to the wishes of the community!
thanks for a wonderful game

	10-12-2003 17:46									#57
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WHERE'S THE SUBMARINE FIX!!!???

Specifically, when a non-hostile AI unit runs into a player's submarine, it results in a declaration of war.

	10-12-2003 17:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Is that maniac in your avatar you, MZ? Oh, and before you ask, the buxom blonde in mine is not me, and neither my wife.

That's Jason Lee, AKA Banky/Brodie, from the set of movies by Kevin Smith - Mallrats, Chasing Amy, Clerks + Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

And I'm sure there will be other patches (this is the BETA, as a special Xmas present, remember? ). This one will be big enough as it is.

And Sir Ralph - is your holiday saved, or ruined? For your family I believe the latter, in all probability.

	10-12-2003 18:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt And Sir Ralph - is your holiday saved, or ruined? For your family I believe the latter, in all probability.

Saved, by all means. My wife enjoys to watch TV and will be happy to be rid of me (or else I might make toxic remarks about the kind of movies and shows she's watching), my son is with his gf doing things for which he doesn't need my help, and I have a room, 2 computers and a Conquests CD for myself.

	10-12-2003 18:46									#60
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Awesome news.

I expected the corruption & gpt bug fixes, but WOW the combat system change sounds like a big deal.

Since I lost a fortified veteran hoplite to an attacking regular warrior (which lost a whopping 1hp) last night, however, I am currently inclined to view the change in a positive light.

Thank you Firaxis/Breakaway/whateveryournameis!

MZ - great avatar . Is that shot from Chasing Amy?

-Arrian