20-04-2001 12:21									#1
	New Scenario: Zweiter WeltKrieg Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hello Everybody,

I am ready to release my newest scenario, Zweiter WeltKrieg - Second World War. I know there are plenty of good WW2 scenarios out there but ZWK is different in that it is a Civ2 scenario with a WWII theme and not a WWII simulation using the Civ2 game engine. So this is not your typical tactical battle type scenario and is suitable for an audience beyond the war scenario enthusiast. You could say that the purpose of the scenario is to discover which other ways WWII (in Europe) could have unfolded if different personalities were involved. Another departure from other war scenarios is the emphasis on research.

ZWK was designed to allow both single player and multi-player games. So do not expect any events or programing to ensure that the War takes its rightful course and there are no free units to beef up the AI. There are also practically no restrictions on negotiations or the transfer of technology. However the map, tech tree and the political *** military balance is such that it steers the players towards the initial phases of the War simply for the sake of maximizing their chances of winning.

Seems that the League's Review Section is no longer being updated so I am simply putting a link here for anyone wanting to download it.
.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2scenmod.shtml#zwc

It is the 10th scenario counting down from the top (added later - and has been updated to version 1.3)

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited May 08, 2001).]

	20-04-2001 22:29									#2
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Here's some units from the scenario. I made most of the ZWK units from scratch.




[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited April 20, 2001).]

	21-04-2001 00:56									#3
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This is an impressive scenario. There are no engineers, and no railroads, so forget the tried and true tactics of WWII scenarios. Combined arms is the key to battle here. In the early part of the war, Pzkw IIs and Pzkw IIIs are quite effective as combat units. Even Bf-110s have value as long range escorts. Each power has a full range of units to build. A new feature is the use of submarines. Unlike other scenarios, they have zero attack factor. You must have Torpedoe units on the subs to use them in an attack role. The scenario provides for free torpedoe replacement in Geramny, and when you capture it, the coast of France. Most of the wonders have been renamed, with new artwork. As can be seen from the exanple posted above by the author, the units are of the highest quality. This is not just another WWII scenario, but a new approach to the second world war.

------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited April 20, 2001).]

	21-04-2001 01:58									#4
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awwwwww no engineers? c'mon....put in engineers and railways...pwease???

	21-04-2001 12:25									#5
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Tundra?

	22-04-2001 03:20									#6
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Kobayashi:

What song is Theme2.wav?

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	23-04-2001 09:21									#9
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This scenario is a little bit too easy...

I played a single player game as the Axis. By week 30, I won the game by capturing London.

I never declared war on the Soviet Union. I sent a few long range planes to Africa to help the Minor Axis, but it turned out to not be really necessary because neither the Allies or the Minor Axis was close to gaining any territory. My win played very close to history... finishing the initial attack on Poland, then turning toward the Neutrals in the west and France, and then England.

How are reinforcements supposed to be sent to Africa? The only way to gain access to it would be to send ships from conquered Greece... unless you conquered the Minor Axis yourself.

One thing that bothered me is that to simulate the oils effect on the economy, the Ploesti oil fields are usually give very high shield and tax bonuses, but these weren't present, which reduced Ploesti more to an isolated city that wasn't worth worrying about, since I kept the Soviet Union from attacking me (actually, I just played like they didn't exist).

Well, I'm sure it'd be a better multi-player game (now I just have to find people to play it with me).

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited April 23, 2001).]

	23-04-2001 12:53									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks for your comments. I have been thinking about this myself (single player axis game) and perhaps I should suggest in the readme of version 1.2 that the single player game can be played as the Allies (I even played a good game as the Neutrals). The problem is balancing the game between single and multi-player. If I gave the Allies 10 more captial ships at the beginning, it would be much harder to get to London in a single player game but in a multi-player game the Axis would never even capture and keep any of the coastal cities. I have tended to give multi-player preference as there are plenty of single player scenarios out there which are very good.

What do you think was the main problem with the Allies AI? Maybe I could tweak it a bit. Or should the Axis objective be to capture both London and Moscow? Another option would be to add a repeating aggression event to make the Russians hate the Germans slowly but that would make the Russians attack the germans and not the otherway round.

Africa should be reached through the two ways you mentioned. The Axis spent a lot of time conquering the Balkans and Greece and couldn't get to Moscow in time cause Barbarosa started late. Another way is to use Marseilles as your main Mediterranean Port and go on to capture Tunis and Algiers.

As for the Ploesti thing, if you lose the city, Guderian's Panzer Academy expires. It has nothing to do with the resources there.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited April 23, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited April 23, 2001).]

	24-04-2001 01:01									#11
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I think the main problem with the Allies AI is that they don't make any units to defend themselves from Air attack, London and Dover had no AA in them, and only one plane was in London. Once I captured Dunkirk, getting from there to Britain was easy.

	25-04-2001 12:16									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks to everyone who has sent in comments. Seems that version 1.1 still has some difficiencies. I am making version 1.2 now. The changes to be implemented so far (as taken from the readme) are:

9.02 VERSION 1.2 CHANGES
------------------------
a. Gave the Polish back the cities of Vilna and Lwow.

b. Disabled city capture (bribing) by Commandoes and enabled the Informant network(embassy) option.

c. Added a ADSIC/Sonar message to replace the Railway message. Added a Mustang Message to replace the Transform message.

d. Withdrew suggestion that single player play as Axis.

e. Allies now begin researching War Adjustment so the Allied AI will have AA guns earlier.

f. Soviets and Minor Allies (i.e. Poland) at at war at the start.

g. Capital ships can now attack aircraft to solve the problem of the invulnerable battleship.

h. Axis government city corruption is now equivalent to 10 spaces from the capital, previously 4. This will reduce the overall Axis advantage.

If there are any more suggestions for other adjustments, NOW would be a good time...
[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited May 06, 2001).]

	25-04-2001 19:14									#13
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I think the Soviets should begin the game at war with the neutrals as well... they never did get around to absorbing the Baltic states.

After another try at version 1.1, I made it to London by Week 16.

	26-04-2001 09:20									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

After changing the corruption factor for Axis, hopefully it will not be that easy to go straight to London. Just a ew questions:

How did you get rid of the British Naval Fleet. Subs or Bombers? Would having less U-boats help?

Have you tried playing as the Allies? I think it is harder and I could make them the default single-player tribe.

	26-04-2001 02:52									#15
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Dealing with the British navy was never a big factor... Maybe giving each U-Boat only 2 torpedos to start out with would make it harder.

I played one turn as the Allies, but after about all of my cities went into civil disorder, I gave up and tried the Axis.

Oh, and one last suggestion, make the League of Nations wonder obsolete. A human player would have no problem breaking the forced peace treaties left and right, but a computer controlled opponent would. I'm pretty sure Germany withdrew from the League of Nations in 1933.

	26-04-2001 06:42									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Love the scenario...
I can't think of any big changes right now, but Germany did leave the League of Nations in 1933 when Hitler took over power.

I think you should consider removing the League of Nations because for one, it was very unsuccesful because it didn't get support from some of the bigger superpowers (U.S.), and two, it makes it too easy to sue for peace if your country is near defeat. I think it is unrealistic because in the two major world wars, the countries would accept pretty much nothing short of a complete unconditional surrender (Vichy France is the only country I can think of that was allowed a REAL puppet gov't).

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"Every man dies, but not every man really lives."
-William Wallace in Braveheart

	26-04-2001 08:24									#17
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I've done some searching... and I believe Theme2.wav is the verse from the following song.

Lied der Panzertruppen

"Stuermt oder schneit, ob die Sonne uns lacht,
Bestaubt sind die Gesichter,
Doch froh ist unser Sinn, ja unser Sinn:
Es braust unser Panzer im Sturme dahin."

So that's one mystery solved...

	06-05-2001 20:40									#19
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I've fixed up the scenario and further to the changes mentioned above for version 1.2 (which was never released). I have made further adjustments and improvements and generally it is not as easy to play Axis as before. The result is version 1.3. This will be my final version for the time being as I think I have taken into account all the comments sent to me. It is the last scenario on the following website:


http://geo5.free.fr/civ2.html


finally the actual changes:

VERSION 1.3 CHANGES
-------------------
a. AA Battery role changed from Air-superiority to Defend.

b. Gave city fortification to Kiel and Brest as there is where the free torpedoes appear. Changed the mechanism for giving the Axis free torpedoes to make it more random.

c. Neutrality Wonder expires with War Adjustment.

d. Allies must now have Lightning (Twin Fusulage) before they can research Mustang(Advanced Piston).

e. Added Industrial Estates to Vologda, Kirov and Dnepropetrovsk.

f. Added a new Allied city, Inverness, in northern Great Britain and added a transport corridor to the North.

g. Axis free support for units reduced from 5 to 4.

h. Fixed 'farmland' message you get when you discover Large Airframe.

i. Changed winning condition for Axis to capturing both London and Moscow.

j. Reduced the defense factors of the heavier tanks and increased the attack factors of the more advanced bombers to increase the pace of the game in the second half.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited May 08, 2001).]

	09-05-2001 05:36									#20
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Hi Kobayashi!

I just got my first look at Zweiter Weltkrieg (v1.3), and I gotta say good job. However, just south of El Alamein is tundra! Did I get a terrain file wrong, or what's going on? I should probably be able to figure this out myself, but I just thought I'd ask. Thanks.

	12-05-2001 07:13									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

I really should've said something sooner.

The message at the start of the scenario is very historically inaccurate.

"Rudolf Hess, who was planning to defect to Britain changes his mind and becomes Fuhrer."

Rudoolf Hess did not parachute into Scotland to defect. He did so because he thought he could single-handedly negotiate a peace settlement with Britain. He was convinced Germany would win the war and destroy Britain unless peace was immediately agreed upon. He wanted to pull off "a very risky show of statesmanship" to impress Hitler. He was not defecting because he felt Germany was doomed, as this first event implies.

The British treated him like a prisoner of war.

Oh, and his ultimate fate was to be tried at Nuremburg, where he was sentenced to life imprisonment. Mostly because his mind was in complete shambles.
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited May 11, 2001).]

	12-05-2001 09:46									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Not to speak for anyone, but I think the aim of ZWK is alternative history. I know that the statement in the scenario is based on history, and that is what you are calling into question, but I think the author just wanted a quick way to not have Adolf as leader. It's use is rather in passing so its importance is minimal.

	12-05-2001 09:56									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Yes... but Hitler's death is the only change, and it implies that if Hitler hadn't died, Hess would've defected to the British, which wasn't what happened.
I didn't ask Kobayashi to change it, I just pointed it out because it seemed odd.

	14-05-2001 09:43									#25
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Thanks for pointing the Hess thing out Cal and thanks FMK for the reply - you are right that I just wanted Hitler out of the way to justify an alternative history.

I am aware of the reasons why Hess did what he did but I thought that the diplomatic attempt wasn't known until much later and as far as anyone thought in 1939, he defected. I could be wrong - I just assumed this without checking.

	15-05-2001 11:48									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Kobayashi: Your Star Trek scenarios are noteworthy in many respects, not least of which is the care and effort you put into the maps. The graphics are outstanding, and they really do transport you "out of this world". For that reason in particular, the ZWK map is extremely disappointing. There aren't any "new" terrain types, which is surprising, but far worse is the use of the "standard" types. Tundra is sprinkled all over the place, and even equating it to "sand" doesn't make sense given it's presence in Italy, Greece, and Turkey. It would have been easy enough to create an extra desert type (using glacier) and still have tundra reserved for the north part of the map. Although frankly, given the absence of Northern Russia and most of the Nordic states, you probably could do away with it altogether. Likewise why is "jungle" sprinkled across France and Eastern Europe? Swamp makes sense in a few of those places, yet doesn't seem to be used at all. The specials too are just not appropriate. Buffalo, Silk, Yaks, Walrus, and Furs simply don't belong on this map. Most recent WWII scenarios have done really cool things with the extra terrains and specials, but this one doesn't even meet minimal standards of "believability".

No offense, but your prior work has been so meticulous that this really stands out like a sore thumb. Especially since every other aspect of the scenario is quite nice and exemplifies thought and originality. So please take this in the spirit with which it was given, and provide this map a MAJOR facelift!

Note: I realize you borrowed "unaltered" the map from MJ's Third Reich scenario, but apparently you didn't look at the associated files. The terrain1.gif and rules.txt clearly show that tundra and jungle were replaced by different terrain types.
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 12:47									#27
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Kull,

No offence taken and thanks for your (diplomatic) comments. I'm not going to be too defensive about the terrain issue because everything you said is true. I simply used the Third Reich map as it was with minimal changes. Its just that I didn't realise that new terrain would be so important to everyone (you are definitely not the only one to complain about this).

To be honest, it never occured to me that there was anything wrong (other than being common) with the default terrain and it was a very low priority for me. I only made new terrain for my star trek scenarios because there weren't any available. I thought that the new ZWK cities would give the map the right feel and the cities themselves probably took 5 times the work needed compared to what it'll take to fiddle around with terrain.

So you see I wouldn't think of the terrain problem as 'un-meticulous' work, just a misunderstanding. But now that you mention it, having beavers and birds isn't something that everyone can appreciate. I guess its my idiosyncracy that I usually don't pay much attention to the name of terrain, just how it looks. I thought the 'jungle' was nice to have as some riverside vegetation (marsh or something). Same thing caused the tundra problem.

Well, to sum up, everyone can't be wrong so I will do a facelift in version 2.0 and of course pay more attention to the terrain in particular.

BTW, did you ever play to the end and as who?

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited May 15, 2001).]

	20-05-2001 20:57									#28
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Dear everyone,

I have made changes in response to the comments by Dienstag, Cal and of course Kull. I've already gone from 1.0 to 1.1 to 1.3 so I don't think I'll release the next version yet cause suggestions for changes keep popping up once in a while. When I am satisfied nothing else needs changing, I will release the final 2.0 version.

In the meanwhile, if anyone has previously downloaded vesion 1.3, I would be happy to e-mail the few 'facelift' files. In the words of Kull, the changes make the ZWK look "Muccccch better!!!" Just e-mail me or leave your request (plus e-mail address) on this thread.


As extracted from the readme:

9.05 VERSION 2.0 CHANGES
------------------------
a. I have moved some of the terrain and added two new terrain types, grove and beach.

b. Most of the terrain bonuses have been changed so that they are more appropriate.

c. Trade items have been changed to different basic minerals and elements.

d. The look of the transport corridor (road) has also been adjusted so it will not be mistaken for railroad.

e. Tanks over forty tons (Panther, Tiger, Tiger II, Stalin and Pershing) can now ignore city fortifications.

f. Created advice files so that the advisors are more effective and explain what units and improvements are for.

g. Both Soviet and Axis AI are more likely to attack each other as the scenario progresses. Soviets and Axis can no longer negotiate.

h. The game doesn't say that Hess was planning to defect any more.

i. Free Axis torpeodes now replace lost ones on a one for one basis.

j. Renamed Dorset and Norfolk (both county names) to Southampton and Yarmouth. Bratislavia now belongs to the Axis.

k. Added more German units to the Lowlands area to make sure the AI can blitzkrieg all the way to France. Added a few more Italian and British units in North Africa.

l. The war heroes pedia entry was slightly too long for the MGE window so it was shortened. Added that the wonders expire with the loss of secondary objectives in the Guderain and After Depression pedia entries.

m. Made Pz IV icon smaller so it does not look like a heavy tank. Also made minor adjustments to other unit icons.

n. Added new event messages for P-51, Lancaster and V1. Enhanced other existing event messages. The events file now exceeds 20k.

o. Fixed bugs in the tech tree. Axis Bomber and not Axis allows the building of HE 111. Prerequisite of the Atomic Bomb tech is now Large Airframe and Nuclear Fission. The Snorchel wonder requires Radar Detector not Acoustic Torpedo.

p. the Axis tech tree picture is available in gif format.

q. Added more German units to the Lowlands area to make sure the AI can blitzkrieg all the way to France. Added a few more Italian and British units in North Africa.

Last edited by kobayashi on 02-06-2001 at 12:43

	02-06-2001 12:49									#29
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Last call for comments before I release version 2.0

	02-06-2001 19:58									#30
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I can't think of any reason not to release it at your earliest convenience. Thank you for your dedication in responding to players' comments. I just want you to know your work is appreciated. Thanks.