10-12-2003 14:33									#1
	Social Enginering Changes Full PM-box? Change here!

Here is a copy of a modified Alpha, its seeks to create a more balanced set of Enginering Choices, Planned has been weakened by removal of some of its growth. In addition assume that the base "row" cost is now 12 for food and minerals. Future Societies also get tweaked. Also note that the starting social enginering settings have negatives now. These negatives significantly improve the AI as it strongly encourages them to take settings like a human player. Note also that the -1 Planet of no Future society will prevent the Gians from capturing mind worms untill they take Green.



Frontier, None, -POLICE, -EFFIC
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC
Democratic, EthCalc, ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --SUPPORT
Fundamentalist, Brain, +MORALE, ++PROBE, --RESEARCH
Rationed, None, -ECONOMY, -INDUSTRY
Free Market, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ---PLANET, ----POLICE
Planned, PlaNets, +GROWTH, +INDUSTRY, --EFFIC
Green, CentEmp, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, --GROWTH
Survival, None, -MORALE, -PROBE
Power, MilAlg, ++MORALE, ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY
Knowledge, Cyber, ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, --PROBE
Wealth, IndAuto, +INDUSTRY, +ECONOMY, --MORALE
None, None, -PLANET
Cybernetic, DigSent, ++EFFIC, ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH, ---POLICE
Eudaimonic, Eudaim, ++GROWTH, ++PLANET, ++INDUSTRY, ---MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE, ++MORALE, ++PROBE, ---SUPPORT

	11-12-2003 03:20									#2
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I like your changes to Power, Cybernetic and Eudaimonic. Though is Planned really too weak in the standard game? I use it for the early game and pop booming, but for the rest FM rules IMO. So IMHO FM should be weakened to get a balance.
Also regarding Politics SE, do you ever use Police State or Fundy? Most only use Democratic. So to get a balance Demo should be weakened IMHO. How about when the negative of Demo becomes -3 Police instead -2 Support? Fundy could also get +2 instead of +1 Morale. Since Demo would then get -3 Police, perhaps FM could get -2 Police and -2 Support instead of -5 Police.

Just my personal opinion, from someone who has thought a lot about balancing SE before.

	12-12-2003 19:40									#3
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Thanks for the Feed Back Manic, I was under the impression that everyone else uses Planned 90% of the time, FM 10% and Green practicaly never.

I personaly liek FM but I dont realy see how the horible Police raiting can be justified in a logical way, China is FreeMarket and is a country with rather high "police rating" if you know what I mean. The game is basicly saying you cant go to war when in FM. Perhaps if the penalty was something differnt like a Growth, Probe or Industry penalty (more rather realistic if you ask me). Also another option might be to make FM only a +1 Economy bonus, thus you need FM and Wealth (or being Morgan) to get the critical +1 energy which is realy the only significant dividing line in the Economy Scale. This would bring FM back into the pattern of all other early SE choices (2 Positives, 1 negative).


I like your idea of giving Democracy a big Police Hit, enough to make people reconsider it, besides support penalty dosent seem very logical.

Fundamentalism could realy use a bost that for shure. I am wondering if it and Power though would be to powerfull together as they would give +4 morale. Perhaps a reduced Research penalty instead? People usaly wont take Fundimentalisms research penalty unless their going PURE momentum and conduct absolutly no research at all.

	13-12-2003 23:13									#4
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Police State (and Planned) are pretty much standard fare if you are the Hive. 1-1-1 Police infantry only cost 1 row to build and are good for 2 drones apiece; 1-1-1 Clean Police units are just 2 rows. You can also tack the Non-Lethal onto something else if you feel like it.

My first thought was that your adjustment to Power was too generous, but thinking about when I've actually used Power, I'm not sure if it is generous enough - that Industry hit is a real killer, especially before you've got the stuff to deal with ecodamage and your upside min production is somewhat limited. It's not that Wealth is without its own disadvantages either, but it still seems much less problematic (and switching out of Wealth is much less traumatic than switching out of Power, although it is annoying that you don't get back all of the Morale you lost when building units under Wealth). RL-justificationwise I'd be inclined to sweeten Power with a +1 Police instead of mitigating the Industry hit, as I think you can make a good case for a sever industrial impact and that a heightened security awareness/paranoia likely leads to more PoliceState-like behavior. The problem is that the advantages of Power don't seem to be as good in practice as they look on paper either; maybe they need to be boosted as well or instead.

FM doesn't really rule out warfare, just makes it more of a PIA, essentially requiring Punishment Spheres (or all specialist bases) and the logistics of moving all your military through those bases. Brood Pits can mitigate enough of the -5 to let you have 1 outside agitator (per BP) without the PDrones. IMhO, Wealth is at least as big a problem for making war, as it requires military facilities, monoliths, creches, training, etc. just to get decent units, elite soldiers are really really really hard to come by.

I like the idea of cutting back on the Growth bonuses - I was thinking that it would be as appropriate RL-wise, if not more so, to cut back on the Growth bonus in Demo (or to add a -1 Growth to Wealth) as it is to cut it back on Planned. Cutting into the Growth bonuses on Demo or Planned would require everyone to use the slower and less effective Golden Age Pop booming (except in the late game), which would not be all bad, but it would stack the deck against the CyCon and Pirates for sure, as well as Morgan and/or Yang (depending on exactly what was changed) who would not be able to do even the GA boom.

I've never really used Fundy much either (except when I was first starting out and I liked the Fundy+Knowledge combo because it gives you a free +1 Morale and +1 Efficiency), so it seems reasonable to find some excuse to beef it up (or to cut the other 2 Political things back). A +1 Support would seem to be easy to justify in the real world, and the -2 Research seems to be based on a rather narrow-minded view of fundamentalism as the Moslems (who are arguably the inspiration for Miriam) were the leading lights scientifically for quite some time and the Popes have probably supported more scientists than were excommunicated for various scientific heresies.

It is dangerous to mess around too much with these things, as they can have radical and/or unexpected effects on the game. There is also the question of whether or not the changes get incorporated into MP/PBEM game and/or scenario files, or whether the players would all have to maintain a special Alpha(x).txt file to utilize the changes in a multiplayer game.

	14-12-2003 16:23									#5
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Keep in mind that I am incressing Base mineral and Nutrient rows to 12, this greatly reduces the significance of each point of Industry and Growth as relative advantage is now 11 v 12 for Yang. Or 12 vs 13 if your the Spartans or using power. The combination of Yan, Planned Wealth now gives you 9 mins a row a 25% reduction vs standard rather then the current 30%. Each Growth and Industry point is now a 8.3% reduction a far more balanced amount.

I belive FM should be altered furter but I cant realy see a good combination for it. Its a very powerfull SE choice with that +1 energy. I also want their to actualy be a reson for Morgan to use it as currently most Morganites wont touch and instead love Green. WTF!!

I would like to completly kill Pop booming if I could, I feel that it realy screws up the game and is rediculusly unrealistic. I might add a -1 Growth to the None Future Society to further keep it down untill the late game when its less of a factor. I would then change base Nuts to 11 so inessance it remains 12 but Pop Booming is that much harder to achive because your in the hole 1 growth. Cycon and Pirates would have to losse their Growth penalties and Green would have to be adjusted upward to compensate for the fact it can easily give you no population growth.

As for Muslim = Miriam, I am rather douptfull. Right wing Muslim fundamentalist tend to focus on Social issue rather then scientific advancment. I always asumed Miriam was based on Gun toating Right Wing bible thumping Southern Babtist in the US. The George W. Bush/Pat Robertson Faction in essense. Miriam is universaly the most loathed faction in the game, I think this reflects a Real world dislike for these people by the games creators and its players who would tend to be educated secular computer nerds. Conversly the Secular and intelectual Zak is a perfect foil to Miriam and is highly desirable.

	20-12-2003 16:09									#6
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Is there any way to fit more SE choices into the game?

	21-12-2003 03:30									#7
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Good work impaler.

More choices? I doubt it, since the UI is pretty much filled, right?

Its like adding more civs per game: I heard it can be done, but the diplomacy interface won't show more than 6.