11-12-2003 15:13									#1
	Germany donīt has to pay for NATO bombardments when German planes didnīt participate Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Full: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3306431.stm

From there:

quote: Serbian families who tried to sue Germany over a Nato bombing raid have lost their case, a German court ruled. The 1999 bombing of a bridge at Varvarin, 110 miles (180km) south-east of Belgrade, killed 10 and injured 17. A total of 35 people sued Germany, saying that although German planes did not take part in the raids, the government held responsibility under its Nato membership. They had sought one million euros ($1.2m) in compensation.

Well, Iīm sorry for the loss of life, but perhaps they should rather sue Milosevic.

	11-12-2003 15:17									#2
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I think they should sue Bush.

	11-12-2003 15:19									#3
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Why sue Germany, why not sue the country that dropped the bombs?

	11-12-2003 15:20									#4
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Or Clinton's willie. Lord knows it's the source of all that is evil in this world.

Edit: Damn crossposts.

	11-12-2003 15:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Why sue Germany, why not sue the country that dropped the bombs?

Well, those NATO guys are all the same!

	11-12-2003 15:31									#6
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Would it be possible to sue NATO as a whole?

	11-12-2003 15:37									#7
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Hm, good question - but where? Theoretically maybe at the ICC, but I doubt it would have more chances there.

	11-12-2003 15:48									#8
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Should set a nice precedent for the Iraq people...

	11-12-2003 16:04									#9
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The sueing or the courtīs decision?

	11-12-2003 18:13									#10
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Since, to the best of my knowledge, bombing of Serbia was illegal under international law, it is interesting to see the legal consequences it is having.

For now, we have had Serbian courts finding Clinton, Albright and others guilty in absence, now we have German court ruling Germany had nothing to do with the bombing.

Anyone knows of other related cases?

	11-12-2003 18:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion (...)now we have German court ruling Germany had nothing to do with the bombing.

The court says German planes had nothing to do with the attack in question, it didnīt say Germany wasnīt participating in the entire operation.

	11-12-2003 18:22									#12
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I stand corrected. So, what explanation of the verdict did the court give?

	11-12-2003 18:26									#13
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From the link: "Berlin argued that it was not liable since neither German planes nor German pilots were involved."

AFAIK German Tornados did only recconaissance missions and antiradar strikes.

	11-12-2003 18:59									#14
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Yeah, only held the ladder to the thief

It's a strawman I think. They should appeal.

	11-12-2003 20:51									#15
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Well, I'm sure it will turn out that it's all our fault, since we are the source of all evil. Lemme get out my checkbook...

-Arrian

	11-12-2003 21:13									#16
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These suits are ridiculous. I'll tell you what - just deduct the claim from all the claims that have/should be made by the Crotians, Turks, Albanians and every other ethic group abused by Serbia under Milosevic.

1 trillion euros minus 1.2 million euros, leaves Serbia to pay 998.8 million euros. Okay - that evens it out.

	11-12-2003 23:50									#17
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Actually, a part of the mess is scattered around the world in various courts. You already know about Hague, where individuals are trialed.

It is less known that Croatia and Bosnia are also suing Serbia as a country for starting the aggression and thus initiating all the wars in the nineties. They also seek reparations. I forgot which court are those cases processed by. Serbia has tried to get Bosnia to drop the charges too, by promising economic aid and so on, but they refused.

	12-12-2003 00:02									#18
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There's this popular believe in Serbia that Germany's precipitation in recognizing the independence of former Yugoslav countries, I think Croatia's and Slovenia's is proof that Germany wanted the disolvement of Yugoslavia.

Plus through popular belief (since it was nationalism unbounded and Milosevic's "intoctrination) ) many Serbs believed that Germany was helping its former allies (this is not a troll alright ) to "destroy" Serbia.

In short they're pissed at you propably as much as against Milosevic.

	12-12-2003 00:45									#19
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When Germany recognized and persuaded other EC countries to recognize Slovenia and Croatia, those countries have already held referendums where majority of population voted for secession which was, and this is important to know, completely legal under the constitution of Yugoslavia.

And another thing, initially both Europe and USA (Bush I admin) had a "tough" stance on breakup of Yugoslavia. They percieved Serbia as "the strong player" who can sort out the mess.

So Germany indeed helped the new countries to get recognized.

In the last 13 years or so since Yugoslavia broke apart, this part of the Balkans has seen conflicts in which other European countries acted mostly on their own realpolitik reasoning, not on principle. Some "sided" with one country, some tried to prevent the war(s) and some purpusefuly helped instability, like Greece had done in Macedonia (not a troll either )

And as far as I know Serbs are not pissed against Croatia very much nowadays.

	12-12-2003 00:49									#20
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I agree. During the Balkan crisis the whole of the Balkans went back like it was WW2 again. Well some more than others (like us). But there were financial benefits too.

About FYROM (not a troll either ) Greece responded to its constitution which openly claimed it had a right to attack Northen Greece. If we wanted we could have destabilized that country. It was a try to get her to drop her "liberation" delusions while at the same time try not to get the war to our doorstep.

	12-12-2003 00:55									#21
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quote: But there were financial benefits too.

Conspiracy theory! Please tell, who payed who?

About Macedonia it claimed it should help the Macedonians in other countries or some such, but they changed the offensive stuff when Greece reacted.

And you did destabilize the country by imposing sanctions on it at one period

	12-12-2003 00:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: But there were financial benefits too. Conspiracy theory! Please tell, who payed who?

Greek companies went full throttle in Serbia. Much like Germany's companies went fuill throttle in Croatia

quote: About Macedonia it claimed it should help the Macedonians in other countries or some such, but they changed the offensive stuff when Greece reacted. And you did destabilize the country by imposing sanctions on it at one period

They changed their constitution which explicitely gave her the right to "liberate" Northern Greece after we enacted the embargo (which excluded pharmaceutical products and food and was lifted as soon as it changed her constitution)

After that Greece even provided army equippement to FYROM (war helicopters and such) to fight the Albanian geurilla insurection.

	12-12-2003 01:04									#23
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German companies are actually quite rare in Croatia
Most of our banks are owned by Austrians or Italians for example.

Helicopters for Macedonia came from Ukraine

	12-12-2003 01:05									#24
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Even Telecommunications?

Modern helicopters (I think Apache's) came from Greece though

	12-12-2003 01:57									#25
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Why do you Greeks B*tch and Moan about the Title of Macedonia? The Belgians don't whine that one of their provinces is called Luxembourg.

	12-12-2003 02:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Why do you Greeks B*tch and Moan about the Title of Macedonia? The Belgians don't whine that one of their provinces is called Luxembourg.

The Belgians are too busy whining if Brussels belongs to the Wallons or to the Flemish, let's not bring up Luxembourg