12-12-2003 00:05									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and what's wrong with foisting the care of their parents onto their children? or are we not so sure about personal responsibility here?

Well, people who hold personal responsibility over social welfare will never support SS. I will say that most people do realize that many responsible people would not be able to support themselves or their parents when they retire. That is capitalism. SS is suppose to make capitalism a little nicer.

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and yes, it is an argument against social security, those voting numbers. my responsibility to other peoples' parents stops where their responsibility begins. because they're going to bankrupt the system, it will be non-existent for me.

We don't know if it will bankrupt the system, but if we can't take care of our elderly under capitalism it's time for a change.

	12-12-2003 00:07									#62
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i may be left of center but i hate SS.

	12-12-2003 00:13									#63
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I really don't think I will see my Co. going anywhere in the next 100 years since it has been around for over 125 years and is still running good... Still, I am not dependent on my Company, nor the government, for my well being.

You can tell the government has seen this problem for some time. They have created a lot of means to invest for your retirement, education, medical benefits yourself while avoiding taxes. These vehicles keep growing, soon they will cancle SS for us who have these tools there for us our whole lives. I suggest everyone who can get an IRA and contribute max to it if they can, invest as much as you can in your 401k and any other vehicle you can get your hands on.

Even if SS causes the economy to tank, there are ways to make money if you are active in the market. Bull markets aren't always the best any way. Also, if it weren't for 401ks, IRAs, and the other government plan (the number escapes me) the market would be where it is today, up! These vehicles allowed for mutual funds, and for people who know nothing about how to invest to invest. I don't think a slump due to SS colapsing would cause a big disturbance on wall street.

	12-12-2003 00:15									#64
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quote: You don't like the tax? Look at the alternative.

what, having kids take care of their own parents? it's a lot better than me, an unconcerned individual having money stolen from me to pay for their inability to take responsibility that is their due.

quote: Well, people who hold personal responsibility over social welfare will never support SS.

social welfare stems from personal responsibility. plain and simple. if you take care of your ****, nobody else will have to.

ss doesn't make capitalism any nicer when you're never going to receive the 'nice' part.

	12-12-2003 00:16									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This sounds like you support SS, so I'm confused. Sorry.

Thank you.
But, while I support the concept and am supporting it through big contributions. I don't agree with how the current system is administered. There has to be a better way.

	12-12-2003 00:25									#66
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I agree with both Q^3 and rah... Problem is you can give people the different vehicles and options to SS yet still issues will arise when someone gets to retiring age and have nothing to show for it. Should this be the govs responsibility? Well, it will become their respons...

The SS money should not be able to be touched by the gov, and should be handled by the SEC, Fanney May, Freddy Mac, HUD, etc... Any other institution that can actually invest the money to benefit the economy in a more efficient manner.

Wouldn't it be nice to know that even though your paying SS you can qualify for a home loan since that monthly payment of SS is going towards it? Or that your money is being activelly traded on the market to encourage cheaper goods and services? Rather than being handed over to some old dude, minus 0.55/dollar due to government inadequacies?

I also think it would be nice if they allowed, or gave some benefit, to people who wish to op out of medicare and SS at retirement age. THose who don't need it, or who will work until they drop. That would be nice. I know my parents are wondering if the should take it, it isn't like they will need it... ever.

	12-12-2003 00:26									#67
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I have been thinking of my plans for a retirement investment/account with the assumption that I will not rely on Social Security.

It's just an assumption I have always had ever since I began thinking about starting my IRA and choosing how I want to invest in it, once I have it established.

	12-12-2003 00:28									#68
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i'm forgetting about social security. on my paychecks, i blank it out so i don't feel as bad about the other taxes too.

	12-12-2003 00:43									#69
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Yeah, MrFun, most retirement advisors are recomending that you plan on getting nothing from the government when you're calcing what you're going to need for retirement. Actually that's kind of sad.

And it would be nice if families took care of themselves. (hopefully our family will not need anything extra and my parents will be provided for.) But there are families that will fall through the cracks and something must be done for them. It isn't always some choice these people made, but just what fate dealt them.

	12-12-2003 00:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The SS money should not be able to be touched by the gov, and should be handled by the SEC, Fanney May, Freddy Mac, HUD, etc... Any other institution that can actually invest the money to benefit the economy in a more efficient manner.

Because the SS surplus is used, it means that we simply pay less taxes in other categories. So the benefit to the economy is the same as the benefit of the Bush tax cuts.

But this is a mute point. Soon (can't remember which year exactly) SS will run a deficit. It's a pay-as-you-go-system. It's just that when the worker/retiree ratio is high there is a surplus that can be used to offset other taxes.

	12-12-2003 01:05									#71
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quote: But this is a mute point.

MOOT, not mute... sorry pet peave of mine .

	12-12-2003 01:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But this is a mute point. MOOT, not mute... sorry pet peave of mine .

Eh, sorry, and thanks. I need to know how to spell that on my upcoming business law final.

	12-12-2003 01:13									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not *****ing about taxes at all, but it's not a personal investment. It's a social investment.

That wasn't directed at you.

	12-12-2003 01:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then your pension will be worth as much as an Enron employee's pension. But those folks are glad that they've got SS.

If they're depending on SS, they'll not be living vey well. Of course there is always welfare for people stupid enough to depend on SS for thier retirement.

	12-12-2003 01:27									#75
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I dont want to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars into security.

I dont want the goverment to support me in my old age.

I want MY OWN DAMN MONEY to do with as I wish, and no one elses.

Call me greedy, I DARE YOU!!!

	12-12-2003 01:29									#76
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I call you stupid.

I'm very glad SS is there. It's nice to know I won't have to work until I die. It's nice to know that no matter how badly I screw up my 401Ks or IRAs, that at least I have something. It may not be a lot, but it's better than nothing.

For those who put their faith in the stock market, while long term trends are very good, you don't retire in the long term. If the market crashes when you're about to retire, you're ****ed. What if your country has a long term economic slump, like Japan since the bursting of their bubble, or the US during the Great Depression? It's not like we haven't just gone through three years of economic pain.

	12-12-2003 01:38									#77
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quote: MOOT, not mute... sorry pet peave of mine

Just say Moo point, and really pisss him off

quote: I'm very glad SS is there.

yeah, but your a commie who wants the government to give you everything

	12-12-2003 01:40									#78
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Not everything.

	12-12-2003 01:41									#79
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not the nookie

	12-12-2003 01:45									#80
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quote: What if your country has a long term economic slump, like Japan since the bursting of their bubble, or the US during the Great Depression? It's not like we haven't just gone through three years of economic pain.

That really is neither here nor there, since if the government is borke and you are broke your still in the sheithouse begging for toast. There are some of us who know, or feel we know, more about money than the baffoons who set up and ran this failing system called SS. Why should they be taking money from me, that is suppose to be for me, but is beggining to look more and more like I will never see it? Why? Because the government already screwed over others and their paying for it, rather we are paying for the mistake of our grandparents... and that sucks. So, I guess the real question is why are we continuing with this error? Why are promising something we know we can't deliver? Why should I believe an obvious lie?

	12-12-2003 01:47									#81
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If the government is broke, your money is worthless, no matter what it is invested in. It is only the creditworthiness of the U.S. government that props up the dollar. In that case, I'll be leading the revolution instead of worrying about SS.

	12-12-2003 01:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Japher not the nookie

	12-12-2003 01:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Japher not the nookie

No. Government nookie smells like government cheese.

	12-12-2003 01:56									#84
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Chegitz, I have not read all your posts, but how can you praise Social Security so much?? If I were you, I would rely on your future through a well-inveseted IRA account.

quote: Originally posted by rah Yeah, MrFun, most retirement advisors are recomending that you plan on getting nothing from the government when you're calcing what you're going to need for retirement. Actually that's kind of sad. And it would be nice if families took care of themselves. (hopefully our family will not need anything extra and my parents will be provided for.) But there are families that will fall through the cracks and something must be done for them. It isn't always some choice these people made, but just what fate dealt them.

It does piss me off that I am still paying for Social Security though, through any income I have right now.

	12-12-2003 02:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Chegitz, I have not read all your posts, but how can you praise Social Security so much?? If I were you, I would rely on your future through a well-inveseted IRA account.

I don't praise it so much, but facts are facts. Something is better than nothing, and it is the single most succcessful anti-poverty program the government has ever had. Nor do I think it's gonna go anywhere, simeply because we're not gonna screw our parents and grandparents out of their retirement. If we raise our kids right, they won't screw us, either.

I also don't fall for all the conservatie lies about how SS is gonna go bankrupt. And that what they are, is lies.

	12-12-2003 02:12									#86
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But Che, for the middle class with enough income, the IRA is an option.


For the lower class, however, we need to find something else besides this dinosaur called Social Security -- or at very least, find some substantial way to rejuvenate it.

	12-12-2003 02:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yes... a BIG RIPOFF! If I had taken the money I paid into SS, and invested it... by the time I retire, I would be able to retire in luxery, and could afford my own medical costs. But no, all I'll see from the government is measily little checks that you can't really live on, and "marginal help" on medical bills... no bargin here.

And I'll weigh in as yet another soon to be really old fart - I'll also end up paying in far more than I'll ever get back out, so the Cato institute can take their "entilement" talk and shove it up their ass.

	12-12-2003 02:43									#88
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That's an interesting comment about the birthrate differences. That's the real crux of the problem in that each one of us is going to be paying a much greater burden than the boomers ever had.

That's why the system, as is, will be in big trouble when all the boomers start to retire, and why you are going to hear lots of calls to push back the retirement age.

If the system can be reformed, adminstered more efficiently, then let's hear some suggestions. Otherwise, the best of many bad options is to increase the retirement age.

	12-12-2003 03:01									#89
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I thought I gave suggestions, take big brother's greedy little hand out of the cookie jar.

quote: The SS money should not be able to be touched by the gov, and should be handled by the SEC, Fanney May, Freddy Mac, HUD, etc... Any other institution that can actually invest the money to benefit the economy in a more efficient manner.

	12-12-2003 03:03									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But Che, for the middle class with enough income, the IRA is an option.

Assuming the economy doesn't tank again. Assuming your stcoks don't take a dive just before you hit retirement age. Assuming that your brokers just don't flat out rip you off.