12-12-2003 17:31									#121
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quote: How old are you?

old enough to know that if she doesn't live with my brother, she's going to get the room farthest from mine.

quote: Now let's say that tomorrow you are struck by a falling tree and paralyzed. Would you still then argue against social security measures being used to benefit you, even though the accident wasn't your fault, or anyone else's?

actually, yes. because in that case, i should have had the foresight to have my own health insurance.

the only two forms of social security i can stand are unemployment benefits and student loans. anything else in its current form are excessive and poorly run.

there's a proverb from somewhere that says it's worse to have married badly than to have never married at all. social security is no different. the current system is so poorly run that it is doing more damage than if we didn't have one. this is not to say a good system isn't a good idea--but sometimes it's better to raze the entire structure and start from scratch.

hell, it almost worked with atlanta, didn't it?

	12-12-2003 18:10									#122
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My only consolation is, by the time I get to be aged 65 (40 years from now) the whole ****ed up system will have collapsed, and a new, better system will be in place.

	12-12-2003 19:59									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the only two forms of social security i can stand are unemployment benefits and student loans. anything else in its current form are excessive and poorly run.

Do you actually have any statisitical evidence to prove this, or are you just letting the CATO Institute do your thinking for you, "moderate."

	12-12-2003 20:50									#124
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Social Security is basically there for people who lack the foresight to plan for their retirement. The govt is not the only entity capable of handling your retirement funds reliably, in fact it's probably the least reliable option. Some here seem to forget how many promises the govt has made and broken over the years.

If SS had never been implimented, the elderly who were too stupid to put money aside for their retirement would deserve what they get. Unfortunately we are now stuck with a system that has encouraged years of govt dependency. Now it's a part of our culture to expect the govt to take care of you.

	12-12-2003 20:51									#125
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You, get out of our country. Now.

	12-12-2003 21:19									#127
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from where i'm sitting, the government doesn't know how to handle money at all.

1. in education, it insists on promoting the mediocre above the deserving, meaning we get half-assed initiatives every four years or so, which promise revolutionary new abilities, only to forget them with the next administration, after having spent fortunes on it.

2. unlike a good corporation, which tries to keep as much of a balanced budget as possible, the government always seems to seek lower revenues while increasing spending. furthermore, they are deferring payments until they're out of office. who will be holding the bag when the lenders come a-knockin'? my generation. so we'll be ****ed while our elders had a wild time.

3. politicians do not have the moral courage, integrity, or long-view, meaning that they're focused on the here and now, conveniently ignoring whatever problems may sprout up from their idiotic initiatives.

4. some of the reason this country's in the fix it's in is because of the abrogation of personal responsibility. if you're not happy with your life, it must be your parents' fault. if you pig out and get fat, it must be the restaurant's fault. if you smoke and get emphysema, it must be altria's fault. if you can't be arsed enough to get a job, it must be the fact that you have the wrong skin color.
social security merely continues the government coddling individuals, emasculating and castrating them.
that said, yes, there are some things outside of the control of individuals: if you have a job, you ought to be able to make ends meet: minimum wage isn't enough, one needs a living wage. altria should have been fined enormous amounts for deliberately lying to the public. but the point remains: by and large, you can control how things end up. therefore, if you don't plan on retirement, and you don't have kids, you'd better figure out a way to live out your golden years pronto--that excludes stealing from those younger than you.

5. i view this like i view affirmative action. i'm against affirmative action because my minority doesn't get it at all. i'm against social security because my generation won't get it at all. how egalitarian.
you get me affirmative action for asian americans, i'll shut up about it. you guarantee social security for my generation, and i'll shut up about it.

	12-12-2003 21:34									#128
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You, get out of our country. Now.

Wow -- you're sounding more and more like SlowwHand everyday.

	12-12-2003 21:35									#129
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he is slowwhand. he's just batting for the other team.

	12-12-2003 21:38									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed from where i'm sitting, the government doesn't know how to handle money at all. 1. in education, it insists on promoting the mediocre above the deserving, meaning we get half-assed initiatives every four years or so, which promise revolutionary new abilities, only to forget them with the next administration, after having spent fortunes on it.

Welcome to the real world of compromises.

quote: 2. unlike a good corporation, which tries to keep as much of a balanced budget as possible, the government always seems to seek lower revenues while increasing spending

How many real corporations have you worked for? I've worked for tow ot the largest nd most powerful, and let me tell you this, they are no where near as efficient as right-wing citizues of the government would like to pretend.

	12-12-2003 21:42									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed he is slowwhand. he's just batting for the other team.

ah

	12-12-2003 21:45									#132
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quote: How many real corporations have you worked for? I've worked for tow ot the largest nd most powerful, and let me tell you this, they are no where near as efficient as right-wing citizues of the government would like to pretend.

i'm working for a private school now. compared to the insides of a corporation, it's even less organized and efficient.
that said, at least they're still able to pay for charge they make without making their successors pay for it.

	12-12-2003 22:03									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How many real corporations have you worked for? I've worked for tow ot the largest nd most powerful, and let me tell you this, they are no where near as efficient as right-wing citizues of the government would like to pretend.

True, corporations are also inefficient, but until competition is replaced with cooperation, the profit motive will always trump the service motive.

	12-12-2003 22:11									#134
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I'd also like to add that I have worked both in the corporate world and in the government, and in my experience the government is far more wasteful.

Yes, competition is wasteful, but at least it creates motivation for efficiency. The government doesn't have to worry about the consequences of inefficiency nearly as much as a corporation does because it's source of revenue is fixed, and is not tied to it's performance. In the corporate world it's survival of the fittest.

	12-12-2003 23:18									#135
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Actually, companies and people can move, so government revenue is not fixed.

Q3,
With universities, you are also paying for future generations, and, you keep paying for much of your life. Alumni are a constant target for donation compaigns.

	12-12-2003 23:21									#136
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quote: The government doesn't have to worry about the consequences of inefficiency nearly as much as a corporation does because it's source of revenue is fixed, and is not tied to it's performance.

Very true. Unless you work for the government, you don't realize how inefficient and wasteful it is. You have people who are horrible at their jobs still around because you can't fire them. And just have to jump through hoops for the smallest thing.

	12-12-2003 23:25									#137
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quote: Q3, With universities, you are also paying for future generations, and, you keep paying for much of your life. Alumni are a constant target for donation compaigns.

again, a false analogy. donations are voluntary. taxes are not.
i can say no to a university, and they'll have to live with it. a lot of uchicago grads do that because they disagree with some policies, which is why we have one of the smaller endowments for a university our caliber. if i say no, they can't audit me; they can't take me to court; they can't garnish my wages. they can say very mean things, but whoop-de-doo, i still have my money.
taxes? i either pay or get punished.

	12-12-2003 23:31									#138
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Sometimes the government is wasteful, sometimes it isn't. Medicare's overhead is one tenth that of an HMO. When government agencies are ineficient, it is usually because blocks have been deliberatly put in their way by Congress or the Administrations who are hostile to the purpose of the agency.

For example, the Bush Administration is hostile to government regulation, so it doesn't allow meat inspecters to do a good job. Any meat inspecter has to justify why he stopped a line, and could lose his job if the political higher-ups don't agree. New regulations allow for much higher amounts of fecal matter in our food. So now we're paying for a agency that dosn't do anything, thanks to Republican greed and Democratic spinelessness.

	12-12-2003 23:37									#139
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quote: Medicare's overhead is one tenth that of an HMO.

Funny, because HMOs were formed persuant to government legislation .

quote: When government agencies are ineficient, it is usually because blocks have been deliberatly put in their way by Congress or the Administrations who are hostile to the purpose of the agency.

Total bull. One, it is insanely difficult to fire anyone in government service. Two, even Congressional or Administration babies have insane regulatory requirements so the government can justify spending money on programs.

	12-12-2003 23:44									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Very true. Unless you work for the government, you don't realize how inefficient and wasteful it is. You have people who are horrible at their jobs still around because you can't fire them. And just have to jump through hoops for the smallest thing.

Oh, absolutely. I've only worked for the US federal courts for a couple of years, but the waste I've seen is massive. I could give hundreds of examples of wasted money, useless employees, and abuse of power. And to think I am only seeing the result of 1% of the entire federal budget.

	12-12-2003 23:45									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Total bull. One, it is insanely difficult to fire anyone in government service.

Funny how the Bush Administration seems to have no problem firing internal critics.

	13-12-2003 00:17									#142
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quote: Funny how the Bush Administration seems to have no problem firing internal critics.

Aside from those who acted grossly wrong (ie, posting research information on personal websites without authorization), who? General incompetance is ignored in most of the government.

I mean there is someone in the office that EVERYONE knows is incompetant, even the bosses, but they can't do a damned thing about it.

	13-12-2003 00:19									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Funny how the Bush Administration seems to have no problem firing internal critics. Aside from those who acted grossly wrong (ie, posting research information on personal websites without authorization), who?

That wasn't a fireable offense, and you know it. Also fired was an invesitgater for the office of mine safety who blew the whistle on the failure of the department to stop a mine flood through their inaction. I could find others, if I wanted to look hard enough.

	13-12-2003 00:21									#144
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quote: That wasn't a fireable offense, and you know it.

Of course it was. You don't act out to show up your boss.

quote: Also fired was an invesitgater for the office of mine safety who blew the whistle on the failure of the department to stop a mine flood through their inaction.

Cite? And a balanced one, please that will give the whole story.

	13-12-2003 00:23									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Now let's say that tomorrow you are struck by a falling tree and paralyzed. Would you still then argue against social security measures being used to benefit you, even though the accident wasn't your fault, or anyone else's? actually, yes. because in that case, i should have had the foresight to have my own health insurance.

Again, you are missing the point of the argument. Private markets simply do not provide health insurance efficiently. The United States spends a higher percentage of GDP on health care than Canada, yet manages to provide a worse overall standard of care.

Public health care is simply cheaper and more effcient.

quote: the only two forms of social security i can stand are unemployment benefits and student loans. anything else in its current form are excessive and poorly run.

Have you ever considered that this might be the best we can hope for?

	13-12-2003 00:26									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That wasn't a fireable offense, and you know it. Of course it was. You don't act out to show up your boss.

He wasn't acting out. He was doing it for about five years, well before Bush became his boss. They fired him because it contradicted Bush's lies. Maybe the President should be lying, instead of firing people who are posting government reasearch.

quote: quote: Also fired was an invesitgater for the office of mine safety who blew the whistle on the failure of the department to stop a mine flood through their inaction. Cite? And a balanced one, please that will give the whole story.

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2...erup/index.html

Read it before you condemn it.

	13-12-2003 00:26									#147
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public health care is cheaper? sorta. less upfront cost, higher taxes.
more efficient? ever been to the dmv? and it's my understanding that in canada, you do have to wait quite a while to get some things done.

as for if this is the best we can do:
i return to a proverb i posted earlier:
it is better to have not married than it is to have married badly.

	13-12-2003 00:34									#148
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Marrying badly is a compromise position. Not marrying is a radical extreme.

	13-12-2003 00:36									#149
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not quite.

if your parents and society force you to marry, yes. if your society doesn't, not so much. besides, the thrust of the proverb isn't really about marriage.

	13-12-2003 00:38									#150
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Well, fortunately you ive in a society where liberals allow you to marry or not marry who you want, provided they consent, are of age, and are of the opposite gender.