13-12-2003 01:55									#181
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Wow -- even if I disagree with you Chegitz, that is an interesting, good allegory to back up your own argument.

	13-12-2003 01:55									#182
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"The Market" is an abstraction-it is a theory, NOT a reality.

How efficient a market is is based on how educated the buyer is, and how informed they are as to the options they are being offered by the sellers. Finally, of course, how you define efficiency is based on what your aims are. A hammer is a very efficient way of hammering in a nail-and horribly inefficient at cracking eggs so I could make an Ommelette.

The real world gives us one in which the buyers are generally poorly educated as to what they are buying, driven by fads and fashion and facing some level of lying by the sellers. All of these realities make the market less efficient than the theoretical market some people here worship. People also utterly ignore the connections of economic to political power. They CAN'T be separated, and whether a program is run by the public or by private interests, one must ask how the conenction of money to power will determine this mix and who wins out.

So enough of this silly santification of the market, and the equally stupid villification of the publi sector.

	13-12-2003 01:57									#183
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Che: You're not making any sense. Argue against people stated opinion not what you think they are.

Last edited by DinoDoc on 13-12-2003 at 02:03

	13-12-2003 02:01									#184
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who are you talking to?

	13-12-2003 02:03									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yeah, I like the idea of elderly people dying in shacks.

Well if you don't then be quiet.

quote: I can't say I have all the answers, but I know what doesn't work.

But it does work - elderly people are not dying in shacks!!! The possibility you are excluding is that this might be the best we can do, given human nature. Perhaps we could tweak the system a bit to make it more efficient, but no alternative has yet been found.

If we don't have a reasonable alternative, then it is childish and idiotic to throw away the one that we have.

quote: If your investments are diversified, and you transfer your money into low-risk areas well before you retire, this won't be a problem.

Yes it will. For one, it is irrational to just save for your retirement because you don't know when you'll die. This is why risk sharing by insurance schemes is most attractive. It prevents people running out of money when they live too long.

The people who have the most incentive to pay into an insurance scheme are those who stand to get more out than they pay in. Hence the scheme will have to start denying people products because there isn't any money in it. Private insurance schemes always face problems like this.

quote: How can someone be too poor to put money aside for retirement, yet they can afford to pay into SS? It's one or the other.

Because if private insurance was the only option it would cost more. A compulsory scheme avoids adverse selection risks. Look at what happened to private health insurance in NZ when the government started cutting health care.

quote: So I'm not a real New Zealander unless I support socialist government programs?

No, you are just one of those cloud cuckoo land folk who bought into the failed Rogernomics rubbish. New Zealand is better off without you.

quote: Yeah, that's why NZ has historically had significantly higher unemployment than the US.

No. You obviously weren't around in the 70s. It doesn't matter anyway, the standard of living and health care for most people in NZ which is not a rich country is a lot better than the US.

quote: Exactly, and as with all things government, there is no competition and therefore no motivation to provide value for money.

That deserves a Ming laugh




The whole point of government providing services is that they are things that a market wouldn't provide. Otherwise we'd leave it to the market. That's why the police among other things are funded by compulsion.

There can be problems caused by lack of competition, but that doesn't mean there are no pressures. People will vote out governments that do not provide a decent level of service in favour of reformers.

But this is still irrelevant. If the government is providing a service, however badly, that people need and that markets would not provide, then it is on balance a good thing.

quote: Yes, the market would no doubt provide a better sevice.

Prove it. All you have done is repeat silly Tory slogans without providing any substantial reasons. Both Chegitz and I have challenged numerous people on this thread to show how a private scheme would do as well as SS at providing such broad public goods. But no one has come up with anything other than whining about having to pay tax.

In fact conservative governments don't believe you because none of them will totally get rid of SS either.

	13-12-2003 02:07									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon In fact conservative governments don't believe you because none of them will totally get rid of SS either.

The reason is that the elderly are loud annoying and vote in large numbers.

	13-12-2003 02:09									#187
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Wow -- even if I disagree with you Chegitz, that is an interesting, good allegory to back up your own argument.

Why thank you. I won't think bad thoughts about you for five minutes, starting . . . now.

	13-12-2003 02:11									#188
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Che: You're not making any sense. Argue against people stated opinion not what you think they are.

My point is, people have forgotten what it was like in this country before the programs that made this country livable came into existence. Take away what made this country a middle class nation, and soon, you won't have a middle-class nation.

	13-12-2003 02:11									#189
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And thus show that there is a "market" for this, and a public democratic will.

I say, lets give the conservaitves a middle of the road state, say Ohio, and let themr un it using all their little pet theories as a test case of conservative ideas, since they have never actually been explored, given that before big government the private sector had failed utterly to provide any of the services people here claim the private sector can do so much better.

	13-12-2003 02:14									#190
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My point is, people have forgotten what it was like in this country before the programs that made this country livable came into existence.

Yes and the point of most of the people you have been argueing with in this thread has been that SS is horribly mismanaged and that it fails to provide the service it claims too in anything approaching an efficent manner.

	13-12-2003 02:17									#191
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes and the point of most of the people you have been argueing with in this thread has been that SS is horribly mismanaged and that it fails to provide the service it claims too in anything approaching an efficent manner.

But it's incorrect, as it has succeeded quite well, and the alternative being proposed is to return to the odl way of doing things, which was to leave the elderly to fend for themselves.

	13-12-2003 02:26									#192
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But it's incorrect, as it has succeeded quite well,

Properly managed 401ks provide a better retirement income than anything I have heard being provided by SS. This alone seems to be a major strike against it as a pension plan. Anyway let's take rah as an example of this. Do you seriously think that the money he's paid into SS will provide him with enough income to maintain his standard of living esp. when we are told what the money would have been worth with any sort of reasonable interest?

	13-12-2003 02:28									#193
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What percentage of the population has 401Ks, let alone properly managed ones.

	13-12-2003 02:34									#194
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How would you describe a pension plan that is consistently out performed in its rate of return by virtually every other plan imanginable? Would you put your money into it if you were at all interested in providing for your retirement?

	13-12-2003 02:34									#195
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quote: There once was a country that built a great wall to keep out barbarians. It was very costly, and very expensive, but it worked, no barbarians came. But generations passed, and no one remembered that there were barbarians, and they began to complain about the cost of the wall, and why should they have to pay. We've never seen a barbarian, they don't exist. And so they stopped maintaining and manning the wall. And the barbarians came and killed them, stole their women and children, and took their land.

That's a simplistic view of the fall of China. The reason the Mongols were able to win was because of a gradual fall of the Confusian system. The wall fell into disrepute not because they chose not to pay for it, but because they couldn't.

	13-12-2003 02:39									#196
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Yes, it is simplisitic, and not completely accurate, but it's not meant to be a history lesson, but an allagory. In fact, I didn't even intend for it to be semi-historical at first.

Let me put it differently then.

I worked at a company as a sysadmin. Very few people knew what I did. I kept their system running. I was so good at it that there were no problems. They began to wonder why they needed a sysadmin when they never had any problems. So they laid me off. Can you guess what happened?

	13-12-2003 02:44									#197
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't suppose any of you remember what life was like for seniors before social security was instituted. Of course you don't, because with very few exceptions, no of us were alive then. At that time, the single largest group of poor people were the elderly. SS is one of the most successful programs in history in ending poverty. What the hell is wrong with conservatives!?! If something doesn't work, you want to get rid of it. If something works, you want to get rid of it.

Yep. The only exception to the second statement is the policy of getting rid of stuff, which is the only one that I don't want to get rid of.

	13-12-2003 02:49									#198
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My point is, programs that work real well, often seem like a waste, because they've fixed the problem that created their necessity. But the only reason the problem has gone away is because it is actively being fixed.

	13-12-2003 03:05									#199
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quote: Let me put it differently then.

That's better (well as an alagory) .

	13-12-2003 03:06									#200
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Wow, this thread is just calling out to me...nah, I'll resist for now.

	13-12-2003 03:10									#201
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How would you describe a pension plan that is consistently out performed in its rate of return by virtually every other plan imanginable? Would you put your money into it if you were at all interested in providing for your retirement?

The point of Social security is not to make one rich, or to create furhter capital, but to insure a steady income. Pehraps the fact that there is less capital to invest (and to use in bubbles) has made the downturns from previous highs in the stock-market more moderate- you forget the cirscumantance under which this system was created-hardly anyone in 1935 was going to be talking about the great perfomance of the markets, and theyn could not if you looked at them historically: only after SS and a bunch of government regulation have there been no serious collapses in the system.

Simple changes to SS, including the most obviosu two, income limits and raising the retirement age would extend th system by decades.

And do stay out DF.

	13-12-2003 03:29									#202
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quote: Simple changes to SS, including the most obviosu two, income limits and raising the retirement age would extend th system by decades.

Yeah, but eliminating it would be better. I already pay into an IRA, for example - I see no reason why I should be double taxed. If I feel like giving to the poor, I'll goddamn well do it on my own. If no one feels like giving to the poor, well, then I guess some people will just have to starve - but it's their own fault for not planning ahead. Sorry.

	13-12-2003 03:32									#203
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yeah, but eliminating it would be better. I already pay into an IRA, for example - I see no reason why I should be double taxed. If I feel like giving to the poor, I'll goddamn well do it on my own. If no one feels like giving to the poor, well, then I guess some people will just have to starve - but it's their own fault for not planning ahead. Sorry.

My sole response to you is this: I know everything you have to say. I think its wrong. I won't waste my time.

	13-12-2003 03:36									#204
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I already pay into an IRA, for example - I see no reason why I should be double taxed.

Since when are IRA accounts taxed?

	13-12-2003 03:38									#205
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MrFun,

Excuse me. I see no reason I should pay twice, with one of those times being for a program I don't want and won't get anything out of anyway.

	13-12-2003 03:44									#206
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They did better than what has followed them. Socialist countries, for all their faults. Didn't have old people picking through garbage dumps like they have in Russia. edit: typo

No doubt Che. Socialist countries have very good intentions and are somewhat good at execution.

Except that capitalist system with social welfare systems are better than socialist nations because capitalist systems can and do deliver every increasing productivity making the welfare system affordable.

Actually, I think this is one of the reasons China has converted.

Compare the ever decreasing standard of living and welfare in Cuba.

	13-12-2003 03:46									#207
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Ok -- I know what you mean. I'm angry that I'm paying for Social Security that I'm not going to be getting by the time I retire, too.

An IRA account is much more reliable when you know what you're doing.

	13-12-2003 03:48									#208
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok -- I know what you mean. I'm angry that I'm paying for Social Security that I'm not going to be getting by the time I retire, too. An IRA account is much more reliable when you know what you're doing.

Mr.Fun, if we can increase the productivity of our economy, we can maintain and even increase social security benefits even with a declining population.

	13-12-2003 03:49									#209
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SS's insolvency is greatly overplayed by its opponents. Rest assured, we will all be getting SS checks when we retire, barring the complete collapse of the U.S.

	13-12-2003 03:53									#210
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quote: SS's insolvency is greatly overplayed by its opponents. Rest assured, we will all be getting SS checks when we retire, barring the complete collapse of the U.S.

Yeah, I mean we don't mind going into debt now, why would we care about dipping into the budget to pay SS checks for the baby boomers? It makes no sense to say that the government will just let SS die.

It ain't self-contained now, so why would it be in the future.