12-12-2003 03:12									#1
	Research, after republic Support Apolyton

Ok, we will have republic in ~10 turns. Python, IIRC, was researching Math, and maybe currency, but I think they might be planning on going 100% tax for a bit after math, in preparation for the war.

I think we need to do something similar, so we can finance upgrades. We're a little short on shields, so I think turning cash into shields is the way to go. We're going to be building 2 cities soon in the middle of a jungle, and we can set one of them to a scientist, and research construction, running max tax. The cash can be used not only on upgrades, but also on rushing improvements (harbor in burundy? courthouse in coventry? Not to mention the possibilities of shortrushing to shave off a turn here and a turn there from various builds).

That's my proposed plan. What do you guys think?

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 14:39									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes, I think we'll need a cash phase - though if we are building libraries in possibly two cities we'll lose their benefit if running 100% tax. If we were to build libs, I'd consider say 20% research to start off on construction, and a little more when the libs are done.

It depends on the intended army size - how much cash we'll need for upgrades. If we do need max cash, then I wonder about the libraries if we're not reasearching.

	12-12-2003 14:50									#3
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I am in favour of buildings libs, even if they are not useful right away. We will soon be only 2 civs on our continent and if we manage to out-research the Phythons, this could give us a cutting edge. This applies also vs. the other civs.
However, if we manage to get Currency before completion of the libs, I'd prefer to switch to Marketplaces instead.
If we're going for max cash, let's start with some Courthouses (not CH, one is enough ) and Harbours.

	12-12-2003 16:21									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage I am in favour of buildings libs, even if they are not useful right away. We will soon be only 2 civs on our continent and if we manage to out-research the Phythons, this could give us a cutting edge. This applies also vs. the other civs. However, if we manage to get Currency before completion of the libs, I'd prefer to switch to Marketplaces instead. If we're going for max cash, let's start with some Courthouses (not CH, one is enough ) and Harbours.

If the operations in the south are successful, and Python choose to relocate - we'll be carrying the research load for our continent so that's something to consider. Also, if we still intend to take and hold territory overseas we'll need some culture.

Against that is the charm of marketplaces in republic at war. The courthouse/marketplace decision for core cities is often tricky. The former are probably better long term, the latter better short term - depending on size, rivers etc.

	12-12-2003 18:28									#5
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Well, if the operations in the south are NOT successful, then we can all pack and go home...
As for the decision about courthouses, marketplaces, libraries and harbours, why not make the decision on a case-by-case basis?
Up to a certain point, we can switch from one to another.
Right now, making more gold makes more sense to me. With it, we can speed up research and run a deficit and rush some buildings.
Construction should be researched 'at leisure' since aqueducts will not be needed right away (cities size 6+ should build workers), except if we plan to boost a city to size 12, if not on a river, for a Wonder (Sistine or Leo).
Therefore I would suggest marketplaces (and harbours).
Oh, BTW, I would also like to sugggest we build a Galley asap and forget about it (i.e. send it scouting). The rewards could be really tremendous. I would gladly 'sacrifice' a Horse or even a Swordman for one.
If we do it correctly, the Phytons would not even be aware it exists.

	12-12-2003 18:57									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The only library I was planning on for now is the one in CoS. That's currently 16 turns from completion. Though the city will gain a spt soon, the anarchy period to come will probably cancel that out, making 16turns a reasonable estimate. There is a forest chop planned that will most likely complete after the library, and we can use that to jumpstart a prebuild for a marketplace in CoS.

Izzardia, meanwhile, is going to stay on workers & settlers & maybe a barracks (we can easily get it to 10spt, for 1 turn vet warriors or 2 turn chariots). Library later. War first, win war, then build more.

The only city we currently own that needs a courthouse is Coventry. The others are set up via RCP, remember, and are all tied at city rank 1. Minimal corruption, fellas, no need to blow 80 shields on courthouses. Swindon, Silesia, Ciao, and maybe Izz are going to build our army.

My hope is that after we build our army & fire it off, we can switch Swindon and/or Silesia to civilian builds (libraries, or market prebuilds). The stooges will be mining & roading the hills in that area, and if we keep pumping workers from Izz occasionally, we can use them to boost Swindon & Silesia's pop so they can work those hills (two each for now, more if we want to irrigate over a mine or two).

I intend to build a galley, MS, but its primary purpose will be hunting for a Monkey galley (if any) and killing that galley (or at least tracking it) if possible.

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 19:00									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok, river site 22111 of Swindon it is. MS, our next city (to be built in 3 turns) will be 222 of Silesia.

After that, it was my intention to build 1-2 cities west of Swindon. I've been pondering how best to arrange them. I think one on a hill tile SW of swindon, and one on the plains tile near the cow. But I'm not sure yet.

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 19:14									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The city 22233 from Swindon can wait, but we still have to keep room enough for it, especially that there are some dyes around.
1 galley just for tracking means 2 units in it in case Monkey sends a settler away.
I still believe we should launch asap a 'long-term purpose' Galley away.
'See you' on Monday.

	12-12-2003 19:38									#9
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22233 of Swindon is awfully close to the 222 from Silesia site, MS.

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 19:48									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Arrian My hope is that after we build our army & fire it off, we can switch Swindon and/or Silesia to civilian builds (libraries, or market prebuilds). -Arrian

That would be good if possible, but unless both ourselves and Python launch a lot of units, I don't know if we can be sure we won't need reinforcements.Two NMs on a hill and a bad RNG string could knock a hole in our forces.

Good thing we've got their map. I notice con's on your C3C team, Arrian. That'll be interesting. As for Beta and H_E though - hmm, Stormies Revenge!

	13-12-2003 00:57									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Newsflash:

Once we have republic, we can get math AND currency from Python (and they will still owe us a bit on top of that). Which means marketplaces.

If we can clarify with Python whether they intend to move, or instead have a divided empire, we can decide better on what CoS should build. If they're going to move, then I'd say we switch to a marketplace. If they staying put, then I say stick with a library.

I think we will want to look in to rushing (at least partially) a marketplace in Izzardia.

Swindon & Silesia are on troops. Ditto Ciao, once its barracks completes (possible rush there).

Coventry is building a courthouse. Another candidate for some rushing.

Burundy... we probably want a harbor before the galley, so we can just leave it on a prebuild (harbors are what, 80 shields?) for a while yet.

The towns to be built 222 of Silesia and 22111 of Swindon can be ordered to build catapults.

It's nearly time to make decisions regarding the exact force composition we want to send south.

What about something like this:

6 horsemen (120 shields + 120g)
6 swordsmen (60 shields + 240g)
4 spearmen (80 shields)
4 catapults (80 shields)

That's 20 total units.

-Arrian

	13-12-2003 02:43									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That looks realistic for 3 barracks in the time frame - and there would be the option of more if we wanted to spend some gold on them rather than improvements.

It looks enough for a couple of cities and-a-bit, so if Python bring similar we should be nearly there but they might be preparing for war themselves. If Pri-Cent has 8 shields it could spit NMs every four turns, and a few of them in the capital could be a tough nut to crack. If we don't have enough left to attack, with no reinforcements already on their way, they get the chance to build even more.

We'll see what Python was thinking of bringing. I'd rather bring too much than too little.

	14-12-2003 22:47									#13
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So Python are talking about 20 swordsmen!

CoS could still do a barracks - it's one shield short when we get the turn, ISTR.

	15-12-2003 15:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 22233 of Swindon is awfully close to the 222 from Silesia site, MS. -Arrian

You're right. We could make a new city 2221 from Swindon (still on the sea), as to get those 2 dyes.

	15-12-2003 16:06									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

I know I'm paranoid again, but double the number of Swordsmen (or better Horses). We should keep them in Izz in case Python wants to double-cross us or as a mobile reserve. We can send them away with Galleys (and Settlers) if we want/can explore and settle some more land.
In this case, marketplaces should have priority over libraries.

	16-12-2003 00:51									#16
	Got spare money?

I don't want to compromise our growth and development for this war. I'm willing to assist Python, but I'm also ok with them doing the heavy lifting - it was their idea.

They are looking at bringing ~25 units.
Let's think about bringing ~20.

8 swords
6 horse
4 spear
2 cats

Plus a galley as soon as we can manage it, but the land forces have priority.

We upgrade the horsemen last, because they're cheaper and because they can catch up to the main force of slowmovers because of their extra movement.

8 warrior -> sword upgrades = 320 gold.
6 chariot -> horse upgrades = 120 gold.

That's 440 gold. And that's without factoring in any rushing. The catapults, for instance. I was gonna build them in our 2 jungle cities, which aren't even built yet, so they won't have enough time to build a cat each before we need to gather our forces. Probably about ~60 gold (15 shields between the both of them) worth of rushing on the cats to get them out on time.

That brings us to a cool 500 gold. War isn't cheap.

The key to all of this (timing) is Horseback Riding. We don't want it before we have a chance to build our chariots (6 of 'em). I'm currently thinking along these lines:

Discover republic - immediate revolution. Set 1 specialist as a scientist, select HBR as the next tech.

Upon coming out of anarchy, calculate the time required to finish our chariots and then we time HBR for 1 turn after that. Then we research polytheism at ~25 turn pace.

-Arrian

	16-12-2003 02:17									#17
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We could produce

8 swords
8 horse
4 spear
2 cats

by 15 turns after Republic - calc documented on the plan thread

	16-12-2003 02:49									#18
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Excellent. Though we might do well to ponder bringing more swords as opposed to horses, due to the Numidians' 3 defense.

It would be interesting to maybe have one invasion force (either us or Python) beeline straight at PC, stopping for nothing, whilst the other hits the outer towns. Since Monkey will likely have *just* gotten mathematics (if that's what Python trades them for Map Making), they probably won't have many (or any) catapults to ping the advancing stack with.

-Arrian

	17-12-2003 14:57									#19
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I still 'insist' of having a 2nd Galley (backup and later exploring).

	17-12-2003 18:49									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, MS, I understand... but where to build it? I already expect to have to spend a bundle of cash helping to rush 1 galley out of Burundy. Are you thinking of Coventry? If so, well, what about the courthouse?

-Arrian

	17-12-2003 19:07									#21
	Support Apolyton

If Burundy's roaded hill can be mined soon into republic, after we rush the first galley we could start a second with some decent shields.

Monkey's ETA on Maps will help us assess this.

	17-12-2003 19:29									#22
	Support Apolyton

~20 turns to MapMaking (see Monkey contact thread).

-Arrian

	17-12-2003 19:33									#23
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Arrian, I understand your reticence but look at the long-term picture. The rewards, in terms of trading techs +maps+cash, if we discover some other civ or some islands will be far greater than a courthouse.
We can also reduce the tech rate for a few turns and rush it with the gold.
But if you and CH prefer not to build any, it's also fine for me.
Time will tell.

	17-12-2003 20:21									#24
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We have plenty of time and options to decide on our naval policy. In addition to raisng Burundy's shield capacity, we could prebuild in Plymouth (currently on cat) and switch to a galley there after we get MM.

	17-12-2003 21:21									#25
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Once we get into republic, we will have a better bead on how much we can afford.

The #1 priority has to be land unit upgrades - slowmovers first, horsemen second. #2 priority is getting at least 1 galley out there. I agree, however, that having 2 would be best. This is to make sure we can sink a Monkey galley and prevent escape.

After that comes civilian building. I am reluctant to give up the courthouse in Coventry, but that doesn't mean we won't do it. Strategic choice and all that.

-Arrian