12-12-2003 07:39									#1
	Emperor level needs a rethink. Put an end to popups!

Now that Sid level has been added, Emperor level could use some tweaking. I prefer a builder game, and it's not easy.

I always play Emperor because Monarch is no challenge and I'll always win. However, I find that Monarch gives a much more enjoyable game overall.

The AI just gets too many bonuses at Emperor. I can live with the build bonus, but the combat bonuses are really annoying. Flipping cities is a pipe dream - the only good culture will do you is stopping your own cities from flipping and conquered cities from flipping back almost immediately. Considering how difficult a cultural victory is at Monarch level, I reckon it's near impossible at Emperor.

The tech trading issue at this level seems to have been addressed slightly, but that's only because I'll tend to haul myself back into the tech race by going for Philosophy (instead of Polytheism which did the same thing in PTW). It's not really adding to the game enjoyment in any way. If I get to Philosophy first, I'll generally lead the tech race after a few swaps. If not, I'll generally be miles behind. The AI seems to ignore Literature altogether now also, making the GL too easy. I've had it every game so far, sometimes building it when I'm in the Medieaval era!

On the flip side, the AI military seems to have got much more intense. I'm playing a game where the Carthaginians just are not stopping (see save game), even though I've bribed the Hittites (twice) and Mongols to join me. They just keep throwing out NM's and Swordsmen and I'm struggling to hold them back.

Why? Because the NM is a very powerful unit normally - but with it costing less to build and the AI bonus to combat, I'm being slaughtered everywhere. Ditto the Hittites. I dunno how many 3-man chariots they've lost against NM's. NM's seem a bit broken at this level. Consider that unit vs a Jaggy Warrior now - 2-3-1 vs 1-1-2, at only double the cost? How many Jaggies would you need to take one of those out (considering experience gains)? 6-7? That does not compute Firaxis.

Another beef is with culture. City flipping is no more than a pipe dream at this level. I've done it twice in about 200 games, and only because I had completely surrounded the enemy city with my own. Culture is useless as an offensive weapon - it's hard enough to win through culture at Monarch level but at Emperor it's practically impossible.

For all that, I'll still probably win my current game. I'll somehow hold them off until I get Gunpowder and then I'll be unstoppable. The problem is, it's just not enjoyable. The pressure is too intense in the early game from all sides. Culture, military and science are all a major struggle.

Now that Sid level has been added, I think that Emperor could be a little kinder to culture/builder type players. The AI doesn't need the combat or culture bonuses at this level - leave them to Deity and Sid. Emperor level should be fun to builder types as well as military types - but it's not.

Attachment: joan d'arc of the french, 760 ad.rar
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	12-12-2003 07:49									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

What AI bonus to combat?

	12-12-2003 08:01									#3
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm What AI bonus to combat?

The AI gets a combat bonus at Emperor level. Of that I'm in no doubt.

I've played tons of games at Monarch and I just don't see the 'unlikely' losses I get at Emperor, time after time. By my reckoning, it's as high as 25% to attack and defence. Maybe higher. I've had too many games for it to be just pure chance.

Barbarians also get harder at Emperor level - for you at least. They don'y get any harder for the AI. The next time you play at Emperor, look out for the AI's warriors beating Barbs all the time, whereas you'll lose around 1/2.

	12-12-2003 08:22									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I just checked in the editor - There is an added difficulty for combat vs barbarians, but I saw no option for a bonus / difficulty for player vs AI combat

	12-12-2003 08:26									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am nearly 100% positive that combat is 'fair' at all difficulty levels.

	12-12-2003 08:36									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It cannot be pure chance. I remain convinced that the AI gets an attack and defence bonus at Emperor Level.

Try some (about 10) warrior v warrior combats on Monarch, then try the same on Emperor. Even with the minimum 10% defence for terrain, you should win 4/6 on the attack. It's more like 2/8 at Emperor level, consistenly.

Where I notice it most is when I'm defending. My warriors don't seem to be any better on defence than they are on attack (vs enemy warriors). It's not a 50-50 combat by any means.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that the Barbarian level modifiers are also included for enemy races. There is no question that enemy units fare much better vs barbarians at Emperor level than yours do. A couple of games will show that to be the case.

Or maybe I'm just cursed.

	12-12-2003 08:54									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You're right about Barbs. Otherwise you're wrong/cursed (the AI civs do not get combat bonuses/penalties at any difficulty level).

Last edited by Dominae on 12-12-2003 at 09:22

	12-12-2003 09:14									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dominae You're right about Barbs. Otherwise you're wrong/cursed (the AI civs do not get combat bonuses/penalties at any difficulty leve).

In that case I'm cursed!

I still don't believe that the AI doesn't get a combat bonus at Emperor level. I know it's not documented, but I bet it's hidden away in the code somewhere...

Seriously - I've had so many games at both Monarch (the level I started at), and Emperor and it really seems that there is a bonus there. In my recent game, I bombarded an archer 4 times with a catapult and caused ONE damage. Same turn, I bombarded a NM in a city with 3 catapults and caused NO damage. Same turn, I bombarded an archer on a mountain with 3 catapults and caused NO damage. That's going well beyond bad luck surely?

I've been losing cities to archers/NM's when I've been defending with phalanx behind walls. It seems to me that the close combats are weighted in favour of the AI somewhat. That could just be bad luck. Constant bad luck!

Anyway, what about the other stuff - in particular the nonsense that is culture at Emperor level?

	12-12-2003 11:03									#9
	Support Apolyton

The AI does not benefit from any Culture bonuses/penalties at any diffculty level (as far as I know, maybe there is stuff "hidden" in the code!).

However, it does indirectly output better Culture at higher diffculties (and worse at lower difficulties) because of its production bonuses. On Emperor, the AIs can build Temples faster than they can on Monarch, which translates into a better Culture rating. This is probably the cause of what you've been experiencing.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 11:26									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Jeem It cannot be pure chance. I remain convinced that the AI gets an attack and defence bonus at Emperor Level. Or maybe I'm just cursed.

You are cursed. I have archer rushed through 9 or so AI cities in one game. I have taken size 7-12 AI cities defended by pikes and muskets with legions and ancient cav. I was surprised in all conditions how few losses I took.

I've also had a warrior sit on a mountain and chew through 4 AI attacking swords before going to his good night.

Combat can indeed make you think you are cursed. I have felt that way sometimes, but then I remind myself how lucky I have been from time to time.

I agree that Emperor is a bigger challange now. I think it has more to do with the gpt bug than anything else. Think about it. Give 7 or 11 civs a production advantage and allow them to research things faster. then allow them to print money by trading back and forth for techs in return for gpt. Makes it sort of hard to put a lock on the tech lead, doesn't it?

In my current game the Byzantines, who were reduced to 2 cities and a treasury of 0 when I finished with them, happened to get a new tech first. A little while later they have 2000 gold in the bank...

	12-12-2003 13:25									#11
	Suffering from ads?

No combat bonus vs other AI or humans. Barbs bonus in combat are level related.

	12-12-2003 14:48									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In Original Civ III game , despiting what developers said about that , I am also convinced it is not only a matter of random events or bad luck the fact that fightings on higher levels leads into " strange " results.

TBH I have never made deep statistics,and for deep I mean let's say 250 tries on each levels, so my statement it is only a " feeling " but I am quite expert on these kind of feelings,beeing a pc strategical games since years.

Let's say this a golden rule :

Higher the level you play , higher the bad lack ratio you experience


Gunter

	12-12-2003 15:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jeem Or maybe I'm just cursed.

Sorry for you Maybe it's just this game.
In my (first and only) Emperor game in C3C I did not experience any 'tweaking', except the units I lost because I'm no good at warfare

Why don't you join the thread 'Emperor games C3C' on the Strategy forum? It's fun and... fruitful.

	12-12-2003 19:16									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lots of good comments here, but let me add a couple others.

First off, I'll reiterate MS's suggestion that you visit the Emperor Games thread on the Strategy forum. I think you'll find a lot there that's useful.

Second, you need to keep in mind that the higher the difficulty level, the bigger hole you start out in. When I made the jump to the Emp level, I felt very frustrated, just like you. In time, I learned how to enjoy and beat Emperor, and I now play most of my games at the Emp level. The key, IMO, to winning at the Emperor level is patience. Some things to understand:

1. You WILL NOT have a tech lead until, at the earliest, the middle of the Middle Ages. Don't expect it, hope for it, or even imagine it's possible. This is a big difference from Monarch, where you can, with smart play, at least be at tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era.

2. As a result, you will rarely have significantly superior military units. This requires you to more carefully plan your wars, rather than just beating up the AI until you get sick of killing him. I've often recommended that you identify 2-3 AI towns as your key goals. Maybe one is near a luxury you desire. Maybe one is at a particularly valuable spot. Whatever the criteria, select limited goals. Once you seize them, sue for peace. You'll likely get quite a bit of cash, as well as a tech or two. DON'T get greedy and think you can wipe out an AI in the ancient era. Such opportunities are very rare.

3. You need to give yourself time to overcome the early advantages the AI gets at the higher levels. A few extortionist wars against your neighbors, some smart researching/ tech trading and careful attention to your infrastructure can make you a real power in the mid to late middle ages.

Third, I think you are grossly overestimating the importance of culture in the game. If you are counting on superior culture to flip AI towns, forget about it. The odds are too small to make it a worthwhile strategy, IMO. Also remember that the production bonuses the AI gets mean that their cultural buildings will have been built earlier, meaning their overall culture will be higher at Emp than at Monarch.

Good luck.

	12-12-2003 19:30									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger 1. You WILL NOT have a tech lead until, at the earliest, the middle of the Middle Ages. Don't expect it, hope for it, or even imagine it's possible. This is a big difference from Monarch, where you can, with smart play, at least be at tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era.

I beg to differ.

If you can grab Philosophy and get Code of Laws for free, it is possible to trade your way to tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era. And yes I'm talking about playing on Emperor.

	12-12-2003 20:38									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What Tall Stranger meant is that you cannot expect to have the tech lead in the Ancient era if you're just a new Emperor-level player. Knowing what to expect is the first step toward beating a difficulty level (and having fun at the same time).


Dominae

	12-12-2003 21:24									#17
	Tired of ads?

I think that is most important thing Dom. It was the same thing when I used to ride century rides. Knowing what to expect allowed me to go on during the days you did not feel up to it. You knew you could and so you did.

	12-12-2003 21:29									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks, Dom. You put it far better than I did.

Stuie, I should have been more precise and stressed that the tech race is a major challenge for new Emperor players, and it can lead to directly to the discouragement Jeem was expressing. If you come into the game not expecting a tech lead until the middle ages, you'll play smarter and be less upset when things aren't exactly like they were on Monarch.

As you point out, it is "possible" to get parity by the end of the ancient era. I would hasten to add, however, that it is unlikely for a new Emp player. I guess I went too far when I said not to "imagine it's possible."

	12-12-2003 21:37									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I don't know why people are so adamant that the AI gets no combat bonus, just because the editor doesn't say so. If the AI does get a bonus it probably runs deeper than the values in the editor, and I agre with Jeem- the kind of battle results that I have experienced on Emperor difficulty simply aren't from chance. The AI consistently defeats my units when it has a lower fight value, such that you can't even be confident of victory when your fighting value is double that of your opponent.

	12-12-2003 21:38									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Firstly, I'm not new to Emperor level. I've been playing at Emperor since the origional Civ3 (the original Civ actually - showing my age here...)

My point is not merely about the difficulty of the game at this level, but at the way in which certain tactics are practically useless.

Basically, a builder game is not suited to this level because the AI is too powerful and aggressive (btw - aggression factor means squat in this game because everyone will pick on you if you're weak)

I have no trouble leading the tech race in the early era either. Philosophy/Literature gets me at least to parity and builds me the GL every game.

What I'm saying about culture is there is no need for it to be so difficult at this level. The production bonus alone (10% at emperor) is not enough for the AI to be almost double my Culture during the game. I build temples and libraries as soon as I can - before granary's usually.

The AI must not suffer so badly with corruption or something at this level. There must be something in the game that is giving them a huge empire-wide bonus.

BTW - I played Mountain Sage's savegame and you can read my report on it now.

	12-12-2003 23:15									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Gibsie,

There are several reasons people don't believe that the AI has a combat bonus at higher levels:

1. It is not in the editor;
2. Most of us do not see wildly unlikely/ improbable combat results on a sustained basis;
3. I believe Firaxis has stated on a number of occasions that the combat system does not change at the higher levels.

I mean no disrespect, but I honestly think you are engaging in selective memory here. It's much easier to remember the time the RNG ripped you off than the times you won against all odds.

If you really believe that an AI combat bonus exists, I encourage you to create a scenario to test it. As I said, I am fairly certain that others have done such tests, but perhaps you will catch something they did not.

	13-12-2003 05:32									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One of the impacts of emp or higher games is that you do not get very many ancient wonders. This wil cripple culture.

As to selective memory, here is what I do know. Back in 1992 I used to play in a lot of 9 ball tourneys. When I pratcied by myself, I would often think things went well and I was running lots of racks. Ducking very and all of that. But I was not remember things clearly, I was forgetting a miss here or there.

I finally had to use a drill to really see how things were going. A simple drill set me straight. Rack the 9 balls and break. Take ball in hand and run out the rack. Start with any numbe rthat suits your game. When you make a miss of any kind, you must start all over. When you make ten racks, move up another ball. If you get to 6, move it out to 20 racks before adding a ball.

Now you will not be in doubt about how you did. Same for combat in civIII. Human nature will cause us to over look reality.

	13-12-2003 05:57									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's not that simple. I and others now seem adamant that there is some other hidden factor involved. My personal belief is that the AI gets a combat bonus at Emperor.

When you watch 4 horsemen beat 3 Musketmen, a Medieval infantryman and a Pikeman behind walls 3 cities in a row, you begin to understand that this is definitely happening. What's more - a very noticable thing is the way that on almost every attack (regardless of relative attack/defence, your units always seem to take at least 1 point of damage. Tonight I witnessed 3 Crusaders losing an average of 2 hit points each when attacking archers in the open.

What I believe is that you don't notice it so much if you 'rush' cities with lots of inferior units. This is because you expect to lose loads of them - it's the times where the numbers are even and you have all the bonuses that it tends to go to crap.

This doesn't happen at Monarch and below. It happens more at Monarch than it does Warlord though. I believe there is a constant percentage effect in operation that gives the AI a combat bonus dependent on the level. There MUST be.

	13-12-2003 06:36									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Another thing - goody huts give results depending on level. This cannot be questioned. At Monarch level you can realistically expect one tech and the odd map/unit for every few huts you open. At Emperor level, getting anything except barbarians is a bonus. A rare bonus.

This is not mentioned anywhere in the rules and I'm pretty sure you can't change it in the editor either. Firaxis will probably say that there's nothing in the game that makes goody huts more likely to spit out barbs at emperor level also.

	13-12-2003 08:05									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Jeem Another thing - goody huts give results depending on level. This cannot be questioned. At Monarch level you can realistically expect one tech and the odd map/unit for every few huts you open. At Emperor level, getting anything except barbarians is a bonus. A rare bonus. This is not mentioned anywhere in the rules and I'm pretty sure you can't change it in the editor either. Firaxis will probably say that there's nothing in the game that makes goody huts more likely to spit out barbs at emperor level also.

Goody huts do give different results according to different difficult levels -- and Firaxis has stated this more than once.

I am sympathetic to your frustrations at Emperor. However, there are no combat bonuses at higher levels. Tall Stranger offered up the perfect advice -- make a map and test it. It is relatively easy to set up a scenario that allows a bunch of your units to attack AI units and compare the results with expectations. In fact, it is so easy, that I did so in 5 minutes while writing this post.

The attached zip file contains a test scenario that removes the terrain defensive value of grassland and places 50 warriors, for each of you and the AI, right next to each other. Each warrior (and each experience level) has 10 HPs. The scenario automatically puts "preserve random seed" OFF, and allows you to play at any difficulty level. Feel free to play at Chieftan, save the game at 4000 BC, and then "stack attack" the AI stack by using "J" and goto. Just total the HPs lost be each side, reload, and repeat until you have a what you think is a sufficient number of trials (probably 4 or 5 reloads is sufficient). Repeat the process at Sid level and compare results. Please share the outcome of the tests!

Catt

Edit: Doh! Added attachment in next post

	13-12-2003 08:06									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Attachment: difficulty combat test.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	13-12-2003 08:15									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The nice thing about this game is that you can easily replicate virtually any scenario you like with the editor. I would therefore suggest that you set up a relatively simple scenario with multiple units, calculate in advance the expected ratio of wins/ losses and then run the scenario a few dozen times. Compare your actual results with the expected, and see if your theory that Firaxis is secretly cheating you is true.

As you can tell, I am highly skeptical of your claims. I have played countless games at Emp, with many many battles, and overall the combat seems about right to me. Come back with real results that can be replicated by others (i.e. tell us exactly what you did) and which demonstrate a statistically significant finding, and we'll talk. Otherwise, it just sounds like you're complaining about bum luck.

	13-12-2003 08:17									#28
	Support Apolyton

WOW,

Nice job Catt. Thanks for the help.

	13-12-2003 08:30									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Jeem What I'm saying about culture is there is no need for it to be so difficult at this level. The production bonus alone (10% at emperor) is not enough for the AI to be almost double my Culture during the game. I build temples and libraries as soon as I can - before granary's usually. The AI must not suffer so badly with corruption or something at this level. There must be something in the game that is giving them a huge empire-wide bonus.

At Emperor the AI is only paying 80% for production (this applies to shields, research and population growth). In addition, the AI-AI trade bonus is pretty high at 150%. In addition to this, they will get at least 2 free units per city. This is a significant economic bonus.

You are correct about corruption, they are playing as if they were playing a Regent level game wrt to corruption and unhappiness.

	13-12-2003 11:54									#30
	Remove this text

Hum, I don't recall seeing any post by Firaxis that huts are level dependant. Here is the post I have on the subject. Understand it is not necessarily the final word and patches and addon could affect it:

About the goody huts, here is the quote from Firaxis:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not really that it's difficult; it's just that it was implemented by an intern . Here are the conditions:

Gold:
*The tile must not have any type of resource or luxury on it.

Maps:
--always available

Nothing:
--always available

Settler:
*Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy.
*Number of player's cities must be <= (TotalCities / NumActivePlayers).

Mercenaries (skilled warrior):
*There must be a unit available to the Barbarians as well as the player and that unit must be able to be built (or have been built) by some player in the game.

Tech:
*Player must still be in Ancient Times.

Barbarians:
*Player must not have Expansionist trait.
*There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius.
*The player must have at least 1 city.
*The player must have at least 1 military unit.
*The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.


__________________
Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games


Last edited by Mike B. FIRAXIS on Aug 01, 2002 at 09:37 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------