21-05-2001 04:16									#1
	The Mars Project: help on some things Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

First Issue: Playable Civilizations.

I'm thinking:
[*]United States of America & Canada
[*]Latin America
[*]Brazil
[*]European Union
[*]People's Republic of China
[*]Russian Federation
[*]Japan & South Korea

And then Barbarians for various other things.


Second Issue: Units.

I've made a few units for the scenario such as astronauts, rovers, various robots, and other scout/resourceful units. Now for attack units. This is where I need to think hard. What kind of attack units/war units should be on Mars? Manned rovers with machine guns? Motorcycles with machine guns? Of course, attacking and war won't come until later in the scenario when the atmosphere is suitable.

Any ideas on this would by much appreciated.

	21-05-2001 04:44									#2
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I suggest combining Latin America with Brazil into MERCOSUR or something along those lines. In place of Latin American throw in some sort of Third World federation supported by the sh!tholes of the world; Iraq, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Zaire, Algeria, Kazakhstan, Iran, etc..

As for war units, I suggest they "evolve" so to speak. Such as technology expands along the tree rovers become redefined and retrofitted slowly adding more weapons, sleeker designs, new implements, etc..

Possibly the best air units will be hovercraft and baloons. Light-weight armor for baloons and hovercraft like in Star Wars. The best land units would be redesigned astronaut outfits (kevlar plated astronauts) and retrofitted rovers (Novo Soyuz, Rover III, etc.).

	21-05-2001 04:44									#3
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Some idears:
the civs:

North America: Canada and United States
European Union
Japan
China
Russia
Some independant rogue group. (example: Microsoft, or SPECTER, from James Bond!)
Aliens woooo, spooky.

the units:
robots, tank-like things, and fighter planes for the basic ones. later on more in depth ones, like cloaking planes, sub-terrainian vehicals, etc. I think you should add some cheesy Mars stereotypes, like aliens from Mars Attacks!

	21-05-2001 06:45									#4
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Hobbes, this scenario is designed to be a realistic interpretation of the colonization and maintainence of human civilization on the planet Mars. Thus, I don't think I'll have aliens, sub-terrainian vehicles, fighter planes (atmosphere can't have fighter planes), definitely no Mars stereotypes ( ), and no independent rogue faction. Maybe in the future I'll make a less realistic interpretation.

WarVoid, I like your suggestions, but realistically those nations listed for Third World nations could not have a space program up to standards with the other nations when it came to colonization of Mars.

Though Brazil will require thinking. Hmmm...

Thanks for the suggestions, you two.

	21-05-2001 07:36									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I imagine the most likely early Martian vehicles will be multi-wheel SUV type transports. More advanced combat units would be multi-legged robots. I assume the atmosphere will be too thin for hover units.

	21-05-2001 07:42									#6
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I wouldn't be surprised if the first Martial colonists used ultralight pedal-powered planes...it worked in some sci-fi novel I read.

	21-05-2001 07:56									#7
	Put an end to popups!

What about including Australia? Even if for no other reason than to have a civ from every continent of the world.

	21-05-2001 09:20									#8
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Let's see...you could have Islamic states, because they don't just mean the arab world, but include rich nations like Brunai that could hire the brainiacs needed for a space program. In stead of calling one Japan and South Korea, how about Pacific ring confederation, or some such lofty sounding name? Of course, the US, European Union, Russian confederation, PRC, and the last for South America could be called the League of Latin States. So that would be:

1. United States
2. European Union
3. People's Republic of China
4. Russian Confederation
5. Union of Islamic States
6. Pacific Ring Confederation
7. League of Latin American States

You could explain the exact membership of each coalition in the readme. For combat units, the early forces would be in my mind something mechanical, like grippers, modified for combat, tracked drones for exploration and suicide missions, gliders with closed circuit TV for recon (They could see two or tree tiles), slow moving foot units like astronauts in pressure suits, and a vehicle like the old lunar rover, but as a mars rover, poorly armed and armored, but faster than the foot soldiers. For later forces, you could add sub-orbital jump-troops (paratroops with great range, ala Mars Now!), ATVs with pulse energy cannon (Try to avoid explosives, as Mars' atmosphere is fragile, and chemicals from explosives could have an adverse affect). Lots of ways to expand here...I hope this helps.

------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

	21-05-2001 09:40									#9
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Kazakhstan has a launch facility. Iran, Iraq, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are rich from oil. South Africa, Israel and India have the technology. Pakistan, India, Zaire, VietNam and Algeria have the manpower and manufacturing capabilities. Put them together in a Third World league and you have yourself a space programme.

cpoulos has a point about the atmosphere. I suggest electric ray guns (possible using discharge arrays), tesla (was almost developed IRL), stun guns, netting (why not?) and other usually non-lethal but very effective weaponry. Ninjas could play an additional and increasing role since they are very effective, lethal and do no harm to the atmosphere.

	21-05-2001 20:43									#10
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1. cpoulus ideas for the civs look suitable to me, nothing to add there.

2. War units on Mars? Hmm...

Early (like in the first decades after the first landing and that is easy to make):

-Lighly armed Astronauts( with light weapons like machine guns and one person missile launchers).

-Lightly armed rovers or buggies( with the same weapons as above, only faster).

-Espionage/Reconnainsance Sattelites (can be deployed from Earth, no launch facilities needed on Mars)

-Baloons (armed with bombes or as espionage/recon vehicles)

-Saboteurs

Middle:

-Different and better equiped versions of the armed astronaut and rover.

-granate launchers

-Ultra-light planes and Airships (to attack and as recon; huge range but very fragile if attacked)

-Armoured Personal Carriers?

-Guerillia's that know the terrain but also only lightly armed

-Rocket powered gliders that fly only centimeters above the ground? Don't know their correct name (only works on flat terrain like sand dunes or water...)

-Tracked Transports

-Ground-to-Air missiles

-Armoured vehicles with projectile/rail guns, nothing fancy just strong but slow.

Late:

-Orbital Bombers

-Tanks adapted to marsian environment

-EMP-weapons

-Jet/Rocket planes

-Hovercrafts?

-Walking/flying/swimming robots

-Specialised forces( i.e. pioneers, alpine troopers, paras, etc...)

-Dropp ships from Orbit

-Full array of orbital weapons


I guess there is plenty more but that is all I can think of now...

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http://buerger.metropolis.de/mathiashk

	21-05-2001 23:57									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone.

I'll go with cpoulos' civ ideas. Thanks!

Henrik, those are excellent. Before your first category I'll probably just have sabateours that can launch a sort of cold war against civilians on Mars.

Air units could include light planes and gliders, of course.

Orbital bombers, fighters, and rocket planes would definitely come very later in the game. They would come near the end, but would give you enough time to have fun with them and use them.

Cpoulos, I'll just have a pop-up on the first turn briefly explaining the history of each coalition, and then a more detailed set of histories in the readme.txt file, like you suggested.

[This message has been edited by PolarisGL (edited May 21, 2001).]

	22-05-2001 00:28									#12
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I'm all giddy now since there's a Muslim civ in the game.

	22-05-2001 07:39									#13
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Oh, and check out my avatar.

	22-05-2001 08:10									#14
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a quick question, are you going to have Mars being terreformed to the point where the whole planet's terrain becomes Earth-like?

	22-05-2001 13:12									#15
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Glad I could help. How are you making the Avitars change? Like the ST Kob units.

	22-05-2001 15:41									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In the early years of colonisation the settlements and colonists would be VERY vulnerable to attacks as even a small hole in a presureised habitat or space suit would cause explosive decompression. I recomend that in the early years units be given much higher attack then defence values. You may also want to include nuclear weapons from the start of the scenario to represent this

Later, as the atmosphere thinkens and technology evolves settlements and colonists would become less vunerable to attack, and defence values should rise.

Some sugestions for units:
-Laser Sniper
-Modified Drill
-Sabetour
-Zepplin
-Various rovers (scout, attack etc)
-Robot (individuals would be far too valuable to risk in combat as reinforcements would have to come all the way from Earth)

	23-05-2001 06:08									#17
	Re: The Mars Project: help on some things Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by PolarisGL First Issue: Playable Civilizations.

My choices:
-America, including Canada
-Russia, possibly with other former USSR members
-China
-Japan
-the EU
-the Third World, led by South Africa and the Arab League
-the UN

quote: Second Issue: Units.

-Grenadiers (using ammonium nitrate explosives, which might not be too hard to manufacture there- only problem is the hydrogen for ammonium)
-Several rovers, reflecting the technology advancing
-Some kind of NTR-propelled rocketplane running on CO2 (these can be built light enough to be sent in from Earth)
-A zeppelin?
-Some kind of attack motorcycle...

I'm having a little difficulty coming up with unit ideas... Hendrik's got some good ideas.

I'd recommend reading the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson and The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin. You should be able to get some good unit ideas from there, as well...

	24-05-2001 02:56									#18
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I heard that Angelo Scotto was thinking of maybe doing and having someone make an FW version of CSPL. I don't know all of its capabilities, but you could, for example, set the CSPL after a certain amount of squares are terraformed, more squares could automatically be terraformed, showing the influence of the atmosphere and some of the already terraformed squares could become more advanced.

	30-05-2001 00:35									#19
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Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

I worked on it over the weekend. I finished the entire map, I do believe.