13-12-2003 01:57									#1
	GoW offer cease-fire, and more Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Hi there. As you withdraw you will notice units following nearby. Let me assure you that these units are strictly for occupation(or to ensure razing) of RP areas as you withdraw. These forces will be small so that they will pose no offensive capability toward your forces. As of this time, we are calling for a ceasefire between our forces to help you withdraw. I will not attack retreating forces. Rest assured that you can take paths without worring about defense bonus etc. They have fought well against superior numbers and with an ally that couldn't assist. Your valiant effort have give about 15 more turns to RP thatn they would have had. It is always harder to defend areas that you don't control than your on. Also I'll begin the planning of the return of your captured workers. This will be in a little while since we still will have to build some roads. Now here is the fun stuff. I realize that this might go against your RP alliance, but would you consider giving some of the RP cites for tech(say invention or other tech) or lux instead of razing them or gifting to RP. For the record a negative answer is understandable and I am just checking. I will send you peace accepted if you like this turn and perhaps wine could follow. I look forward to a profitable relationship in the future. As always, best wishes Aggie

copy in log - but some messages deserve a thread

	13-12-2003 02:29									#2
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Oh my.

We need to discuss it with RP, of course, but I'd sure as hell like to trade those cities for tech!

-Arrian

	13-12-2003 02:33									#3
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quote: I will send you peace accepted if you like this turn and perhaps wine could follow.

Hold on just a minute, who said this was over?

Once off bob GoW will pose no threat to us whatsoever and as far as I can tell we suffer no WW from this. Why the hell should we make peace with them? Why rule out our threat against them? Why rule out a GS assited RP conquistador landing further down the line.

GoW had a very very good deal for peace with us but they chose to reject it in an appaling way and then proceed to burn just about every bridge. GoW have behaved atrociously.

I understand were going to need luxuries from bob very badly so peace will eventually be necessary, but for now if they want it they should have to pay through the nose after the way they have acted.

	13-12-2003 02:35									#4
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Well, we need to know what techs they would be willing to trade. (I guess he doesn't check us every turn ) Do they have anything beyond gunpowder? Do they have astronomy, etc down those paths?

I don't find a luxury to be that enticing, after all we can trade them one of ours for one of theirs probably anyway.

Would RP go for this? I dont' know. Will GoW put restriction on us transferring the techs to them?

I would ask for at least two real techs (meaning not gp, which we have in 2 turns) for those cities, as they are fairly nice sized.

Perhaps we could get a tech and info from them, ie perhaps a limited tech partnership-their goals, what trades they have set up.

(try to get them to invade lego )

	13-12-2003 02:49									#5
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I understand that bitterness will get us no where and that we should really move on but we should really be paid for peace before any other deal is made.

As for tech for cities, why not it's only pop points in a location thats unproductive for them. RP will probablyunderstand that too.

	13-12-2003 03:33									#6
	Support Apolyton

It looks like we're being offered a luxury for peace here, which would come in handy as we lose the Barcelona silks next turn, and have possible WLTK days ahead in midlands cities nearing size six. OTOH, we could trade for luxuries, but not until we're at peace.

Are the cities ours to trade away? Not without RP's consent, I'd have thought. If GoW had a leader they were saving for an FP in Pamplona those cities would be worth something.

I didn't mind GoW rejecting our deal - it was the immediate refusal to discuss any other peace, followed by the barrage on the public forum that annoyed me.

There's every reason to expect that GoW, ND and Lego all want to be nice to GS from now on.

	13-12-2003 04:53									#7
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Further thoughts -

Notice there's no talk of 'leaving Bob forever' that we had from ND. If Darekill wants to make us a more serious offer perhaps it should look something more like this.

We have to think ahead to what the likely balance of forces will now be. Although the 2 civs on Bob would be unstoppable over time, if it takes another 15 turns to take Pamplona, and both us and GoW are pillaging the Spanish countryside - as Theseus said a while back - it'll take a long time for GoW to get anything out of it - unless they have a leader.

GoW are currently stronger than ND militarily, but only because ND spent more heavily at the Forest of Doom. GoW came after us because we saved Pamplona, and they couldn't take it with a ND-GoW one-two as planned. That battle screwed them up as well as us. As usual, the big winner was Lego, but this time RP won it too. Ironically, this doesn't help us, as, assuming they comply, we need RP palaced in Estonia researching and helping with the sea-wall.

Master Zen probably wasn't joking when he said 'Let's all have a beer and go and invade Lego'. Someone strong has too, before it's too late. If they put Sistine in the Bach city, two landings far from there could draw their fire then a couple of turns later the third force lands near the wonder city and trashes it. Put that in your metropolis and smoke it, Legonians

	13-12-2003 06:44									#8
	The Pamplona Dilemma Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm worried that it'll cost GoW and ND so much to take Pamp that they'll never get to Lego in time - that's assuming they don't start on each other.
They've got to get Lego, and we want them to - and they want us to not reinvade if they go after Lego. Meanwhile Lego will want us at least neutral - or will encourage us to invade - so we could hold the 'Kingmaker' role

However, if Pamp takes forever for GoW to take, by the time they've rebuilt their Army Lego could at least have Nationalism. Then there's rails. If Lego get them it could take *everyone* to stop them.

The bottom line is - unless we can see a way to take advantage of the fact that we've just made Pamp able to last out much longer, a long, heroic defense of Pamp could hand Lego the game. Also, we get nothing from RP, wheras we do if they handed Pamp to GoW next turn in exchange for - whatever.

All that is based on one assumption - that GoW and ND stay together and want to go after Lego - soon. Other scenarios are available.

Without knowing where everyone is in tech, and what they're planning on doing to each other next, it's difficult to read the situation. I'm just leaning towards the view that GoW and ND could do well to pay GS and RP handsomely in tech, luxuries, and escape rights to RP, rather in shields that have to be replaced taking Pamplona.

	13-12-2003 09:16									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

How about this :

We say to GoW that we have a plan that could see them getting up to all five cities currently in GS/RP control - depending on what they have to offer.

What could they offer GS and RP that could equate to (if they have a leader) - an instant core with some decent pop? Due to a bug, two of the cities are already full of Chinese!

If they can't make an offer for that which satisfies GS and RP, we can raise four cities and let them spend a fortune in shields and time taking Pamplona - which was what we were going to do anyway.

The second point is that GS and RP would prefer to do 'profitable business' with a Civ whose aim is to win the game by weakening and defeating the major powers, rather than losing it by attempting to eliminate minor ones - specifically ourselves : GS and RP.

GS would probably settle for an impressive package of tech and luxuries - RP might want that too, but they also dream of being able to live in peace in Spain. What if they were allowed to keep some of Spain - just a corner? Plant new cities even - in the jungle. Bob for the Bobians, is ND's cry - so why not let the Spanish live there?

RP's palace would move to Millertown as planned, but they keep a token, harmless presence on Bob. If things go well, maybe they can move their capital back there, and we build our FP in Eliopolis.

Now, a rational civ would pay tech, lux and land rights for five decent cities. Would GoW?

	13-12-2003 11:29									#10
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If GoW do send us peace accepted I think we should take it - because although we continue moving our troops off we still control the cities.

Then we could negotiate the sale of Barcelona, New Madrid and Sirroco without GoW being able to take them because we're at peace. If they don't want to pay our price we raise the cities.

If RP, GoW and ND were to consider a deal over Pamplona and the other cities, we should leave them to it as far as any land negotiations go - Bob for the Bobians (for now) and let them sort out their own borders.

	13-12-2003 12:24									#11
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It seems to me that Lego will head for Steam with all they have. I would, because if they have coal and then crank out the rails, it will be very hard to stop them.

Their bigest fear has to be that GoW and ND will stop all current hostilities and make some trades. Then head for them and maybe get us to help them even in a small way.

Anything less than that scenario puts them in the front row. If ND and GoW go at each for the whole of Bob, it will take too long and too many shields for the winner to tackle Lego.

GoW and ND would have to sweat out either Lego or us or both trying for a little of the pie then.

I guess the off chance the any wars would trigger a few leaders, may be threat, but it is very small.

	13-12-2003 19:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If ND and GoW go at each for the whole of Bob, it will take too long and too many shields for the winner to tackle Lego.

This is exactly what I'm thinking.

The last few turns have probably cost GS, ND and GoW at least fifty units between them. This partly explains Lego's surge on the powergraph.

All the participants in the Great Bobian war must now realise that Lego's the threat. If we go after each other, Lego win.

	13-12-2003 22:00									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've PM'd RP and GoW - see logs. I've made it clear that this is an idea for teams to consider and not a GS position. We haven't fully discussed it, but all teams need to simultaneously. This has to take days, not weeks. Perhaps I'll fire a short note at ND too.

I'll be away tonight and probably not around much till tomorrow evening GMT. If anyone can see what I'm getting at here and can proceed with it then cool. If people don't like it it doesn't matter as I haven't committed to anything or given anything away.

	13-12-2003 23:31									#14
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I agree with the train of thought. what have we to lose?

I wonder if GoW will tell ND that we are gifting them the cities. I hope so. I could see this as a setup-GoW claims that it lost most of its riders taking us out on Bob, so ND will have to take pamplona alone. Then a joint lego-gow finishes the weakened ND. I hope that isn't whats going on.



Oh, and that pamplona 15 turn thing. I think Aggie was trying to say that pamplona would have fallen 15 turns ago if not for our interference, or perhaps he meant something like it would have fallen 10 turns ago plus five in the future... who knows, really. I think it has taken longer to get to this point, actually.

	13-12-2003 23:49									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, if that's the case, that Pamp's about to fall anyway then I've got it wrong, and RP don't have negotiating leverage.

You're right about the possibility of an ND-GoW action against ND.

We'll see what GoW say.

	13-12-2003 23:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Well, if that's the case, that Pamp's about to fall anyway then I've got it wrong, and RP don't have negotiating leverage.

I really don't know what he was trying to say, open to some different interpretations...

Nice that they volunteered to return our workers we probably would have asked for them anyway.

	14-12-2003 04:06									#17
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I doubt that the city can hold out for another 15 turns, so I suspect he meant the city laster 15 turns longer than it would have.

	14-12-2003 11:07									#18
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See the little information Arenlos passed along in the RP chat thread. ND may now be fearing a GoW/Lego backstab, and are willing to work out peace with RP and GS.

	15-12-2003 03:37									#19
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I concur that the 15 turns was both past and future.

Things are getting interesting.