21-04-2004 03:56									#31
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I'd rather be interested in getting the power for SLICing the AI to using their intelligence Generally I would not like to loose any features and/or units already in the game. Like Solver, putting a couple of spies in a helicopter and sending them to a mission in my favorite enemy's empire while preparing my armies for the unevitable hot war amuses me a lot. And I think that better and better working possibilities for teaching the AI how to use their units would be best, and I am also thinking of Mods (with spies and slavers and clerics and terrorists and real cold wars and bribing armies and possibly new units with new abilities) becoming more fun in MP-games once running reliably and stable. I don't even mind the lawyer currently having no other ability but sueing a corporate branch - maybe some modder will have an idea for an additional ability and possibly SLIC the AI to knowing how to use a lawyer .

	21-04-2004 07:54									#32
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I prefer moving my slavers and spies etc. the only unit I would consider abstracting is the diplomat because it does nothing.

	21-04-2004 13:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx I prefer moving my slavers and spies etc. the only unit I would consider abstracting is the diplomat because it does nothing.

Actually IIRC the diplomat can discover stealth units as well, but otherwise........It is a pain to get the diplomat to any forgein city and most of the time it will be slautered just before arrival.

	21-04-2004 15:13									#34
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Yes the diplomat was a bit of a wimp especial on larger maps.

I would like to see him gain more stuff in the game not be annihilated. For example allow him to bribe things like in civ 2 so he can gain his own army on the way to the other civ.

	21-04-2004 15:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc Yes the diplomat was a bit of a wimp especial on larger maps. I would like to see him gain more stuff in the game not be annihilated. For example allow him to bribe things like in civ 2 so he can gain his own army on the way to the other civ.

It was a nice feature, but too much of an exploit

Unless we would restrict it to 1 time per diplomat. This would mean that 1 single threat could be avoided. And further restriction (otherwise we would see hordes of diplomats swarming the enemy land). Only once per like 20 turns.

	21-04-2004 16:08									#36
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Ones per 20 turns sounds ok but i would make it 50

	21-04-2004 16:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc Ones per 20 turns sounds ok but i would make it 50

Similar what I was thinking about, make it hard for those exploiters..........

	21-04-2004 17:20									#38
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I would also like to add a kind of diplomacy to the barbarians where as you could possible offer rewards for things of value to you.

	21-04-2004 17:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Similar what I was thinking about, make it hard for those exploiters..........

I'd like to see it just cost more everytime they bribe so it doubles each time or something. I think the bribing diplomat is "realistic" small countries that are focusing on trade then can buy off the motley horde coming for the city. It creates a new challenge and curbs the warmonger urge. (might be even more efective if morale is added)

	21-04-2004 18:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by E I'd like to see it just cost more everytime they bribe so it doubles each time or something. I think the bribing diplomat is "realistic" small countries that are focusing on trade then can buy off the motley horde coming for the city. It creates a new challenge and curbs the warmonger urge. (might be even more efective if morale is added)

one of the biggest exploits possible in CIV 1&2, take a horde of diplomats and buy your way through. Cities/tanks/settles whatever, just keep the money rolling

It might be fun for 1 or 2 games, but it shall not be there as default.

I even forgotten, you needed a tech badly, first steal out of the city to get 1 tech, bribe it and you get another one

Why shall a small nation be able to buy off a motley horde? If we are talking about another nation, wouldn't make so much sense for me.

Maybe just me that I never liked the huge exploit in civ..........

	21-04-2004 21:04									#41
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quote: Actualy atleast in the Mods it never seemed to bother the AI in terms of keeping up in the tech race - so that function of the Ai's spy wasn't needed if it ever used it in the game?

Yes, but ideally we would all lik to see not spies removed, but an AI that can use them competently to steal your tech .

	22-04-2004 00:07									#42
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moving slavers might be fun, but they are IMO one of the most unbalancing special units in the game - with them its posible to get massive cities quickly, a huge advantage to the player(and the ingame un-incentives are not tough enough to curb the exploit).

Spies i like having in the field - but i never see(maybe cause their invisible ) the Ai use them?

The Diplomat makes sense to abstract, as we already have the diplomacy screen, it could find a logical home there i guess?

Clerics/franchise/lawyers - i enjoy seeing the little symbols appear next to the enemy cities name when i use them, and their epic journeys in the heart of enemy territory can be fun. Many of the minor special units, the ones that don't get used that often, could remain as units on the map. So i'm leaning towards the thought that if we do decide to abstract any, it should be the most common usage ones and of those the ones that give an unfair advantage to the human player over the Ai.

	22-04-2004 00:12									#43
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The diplomat could be abstracted because it's little fun to use. Slavers and Spies, true, are currently a human advantage over the AI pretty much, but taking them out as units would, IMO, remove a good part of the game excitement. I like seeing Slavers move with archer escort, too, there are just those minor things that I love, an extra touch to the game .

	22-04-2004 01:08									#44
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I can go with abstracting the diplomat (maybe clerics should get the "bribe" ability, or a new special forces nit that makes the bribed units into a guerrilla unit)

But I do think the special units is something that makes CtP2 better than CIv3. and I think it opens up the door for different game paths instead of the Civ3 tech race to tanks. Fighting a shadow/unconventional war of guerrilas, assassination, or terrorism should be an option.

On Slaves. Can anyone familiar with code see if there is a foundation for Civ3-like nationalities through the Slave codes. I know they function as citizens but are identified differently and revolt often. I think it could be the start for a nationality code.

	22-04-2004 01:26									#45
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This might become a new thread (Unless I missed it), but what have been the discussions for curbing Infinite City Sprawl (ICS) in the Apolyton Edition?

Civ3 tries to with corruption and cultural conversion.

I think CtP2 Cradle used the plagues to limit it.

ICS is another side effect of the Warmonger bias in Civ games. Curbing it can make the game more fun and give other options/paths of game play.

One thought I was throwing around includes using colonies more. Colonies (and Settlements, which could be different) could be the size 0 city like its already been SLIC'd but it cant grow with out a serious investment. I was thinking of something like a city center/govt improvement that is relatively expensive to build and maintain but after its built than the city population can grow.

Colony - built on resources can build Harbor, Airport, militia before City govt. Does not have to be in border radius of empire.
Settlements - has to be connected to previous borders (I guess like Rise Of Nations does it). But can receive slaves but cannot build most city stuff, only militia and city govt initially.

I was tempted to suggest settlers be generated randomly and build settlements to abstract immigration, population movements (basically a settler would be created from cities randomly and go settle on its own, run by the same code as the AI except you'd own the city) This would make it a challenge to deal with growing borders and growing population as opposed to the strict managed civ style of planning your empire.

Although the random growth model is more realistic, more challenging, and would curtail the warmonger since they have to contend with more domestic issues, I expected an uproar so I'm not going to push hard for it.


Finally, Civ3 has resistors when you take an enemy city and different nationalities. I dont remember the resistors being Ctp2. I think having an itially resisting population, partisans (already SLIC'd) and to simulate reconstruction you have to build the city govt improvement I mentioned above to restore order and abstract reconstruction and civil authority efforts. Since the captured city would be bigger than the settlement 0, all of those population above that number are in resistance until city govt is built and then slowly they are quelled by the improvement (and additional bldgs) and by military units (to quel resistance it should be atleast one unit per one pop). this could slow down war mongers as they have to quel resistors, invest in the conquered city, and figh partisans. (again this might be a new thread)

	22-04-2004 03:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor moving slavers might be fun, but they are IMO one of the most unbalancing special units in the game - with them its posible to get massive cities quickly, a huge advantage to the player(and the ingame un-incentives are not tough enough to curb the exploit).

quote: Many of the minor special units, the ones that don't get used that often, could remain as units on the map. So i'm leaning towards the thought that if we do decide to abstract any, it should be the most common usage ones and of those the ones that give an unfair advantage to the human player over the Ai.

Are they unbalancing because they are implemented as a unit rather than through an interface window? The current slaver unit could very easily be implemented exactly as it is now but through a window interface: pick a civ, pick a city, pay 250 gold, have a 50% chance of a slave appearing in one of your cities; how is this an improvement?

The current diplomat however: you walk it to a foreign city, establish an embassy, and then what? Either give the unit something to do, or make embassy formation automatic.

	22-04-2004 04:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch one of the biggest exploits possible in CIV 1&2, take a horde of diplomats and buy your way through. Cities/tanks/settles whatever, just keep the money rolling

I agree with you, the army of diplomats stealing techs and units in Civ2 is certainly one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in a civ like game and moreover this is a major MP spoiler.

Once again, whether it is about graphics or game features I think that we should not try to implement things coming from Civ3 or Civ2 but rather think about the way we can improve a game while respecting the wonderful concepts it is based on.

	22-04-2004 04:19									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Yes, but ideally we would all lik to see not spies removed, but an AI that can use them competently to steal your tech .

True and in conformity with my previous post...

	22-04-2004 04:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by E Finally, Civ3 has resistors when you take an enemy city and different nationalities. I dont remember the resistors being Ctp2. I think having an itially resisting population, partisans (already SLIC'd) and to simulate reconstruction you have to build the city govt improvement I mentioned above to restore order and abstract reconstruction and civil authority efforts. Since the captured city would be bigger than the settlement 0, all of those population above that number are in resistance until city govt is built and then slowly they are quelled by the improvement (and additional bldgs) and by military units (to quel resistance it should be atleast one unit per one pop). this could slow down war mongers as they have to quel resistors, invest in the conquered city, and figh partisans. (again this might be a new thread)

We should not forget CtP2 is a grand strategy game, something that the Civ3 designer seem to have some trouble to remember. The game is about conquest and empire building at a global level. If we want to limit the warmongers I think that the easiest way is through the amount of money available to the player and through the maintenance costs. But one of the great things about CtP2 is that one can play as he wants, the warmonger can wage war and the "Empire Builder" like me can build.

	22-04-2004 04:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin We should not forget CtP2 is a grand strategy game, something that the Civ3 designer seem to have some trouble to remember. The game is about conquest and empire building at a global level. If we want to limit the warmongers I think that the easiest way is through the amount of money available to the player and through the maintenance costs. But one of the great things about CtP2 is that one can play as he wants, the warmonger can wage war and the "Empire Builder" like me can build.

Considering current events and how many times ancient leaders had to do uprisings I think the resistors is a way to abstract and slow down the conquests. Technically if wanted to make it a real global strategy as the "Emperor" just tell your army to take the nation and wait for a report on win or lose. But I really think you just dont like that I mentioned Civ3 not so much the idea

I myself am more of an empire builder player, when I do fight it is to prevent the rampaging warmonger. I think ctp2 still has too much leaning to the war monger side so the resistor would just slow them down a bit.


[/QUOTE] If we want to limit the warmongers I think that the easiest way is through the amount of money available to the player and through the maintenance costs. [/QUOTE]

I think so far you are going along with idea of abstracting logistics and adding maintenance costs and maybe move costs too!

	22-04-2004 05:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by E Considering current events...

The context is not the same, the war in Iraq was not a conquest...

quote: ... war and how many times ancient leaders had to do uprisings I think the resistors is a way to abstract and slow down the conquests.

I agree but IMO this is better simulated through the abstract use of spies or the decrease in happiness after a conquest...

quote: Technically if wanted to make it a real global strategy as the "Emperor" just tell your army to take the nation and wait for a report on win or lose.

But We play the emperors... the Alexander kind of.

quote: But I really think you just dont like that I mentioned Civ3 not so much the idea

True, I really don't like Civ3 and what I appreciate in CtP2 (among other reasons) is that it is NOT like Civ3. To be honest, one of the few things I have liked in Civ3 is the concept of foreign population.

quote: I myself am more of an empire builder player, when I do fight it is to prevent the rampaging warmonger. I think ctp2 still has too much leaning to the war monger side so the resistor would just slow them down a bit.

I don't really think so...

quote: I think so far you are going along with idea of abstracting logistics and adding maintenance costs and maybe move costs too!

Logistics are already abstracted through the maintenance costs... I am not in favor of changing the movement costs, they are well balanced like this IMO and they allow a clear difference between modern and older units.

If we want to slow down the warmonger the best way, though the hardest, would be to improve the AI. Once the AI would have learned how to build balanced stacks, how to use planes, how to embark and disembark units and how to chose and keep its objectives adequately it will be a tough opponent and war will not necessarilly be the best way to win as it would take a heavy toll on the belligerents. And if the AI Civs learn how to stage a coordinated attack on a player...

But IMO this is only viable if Diplomacy can have a real effect on the AI Civs behavior.

	22-04-2004 16:10									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Are they unbalancing because they are implemented as a unit rather than through an interface window? The current slaver unit could very easily be implemented exactly as it is now but through a window interface: pick a civ, pick a city, pay 250 gold, have a 50% chance of a slave appearing in one of your cities; how is this an improvement? The current diplomat however: you walk it to a foreign city, establish an embassy, and then what? Either give the unit something to do, or make embassy formation automatic.

yep true - ok then that leaves it down to cost of use(monetary as well as diplomaticaly), or maybe a much reduced chance of success? And this thing has been discussed many times before so i'll leave it as it is - if its just unit balance issues thats fairly easy to do in comparison to abstracting. So it looks like the vote is going to the Diplomat does anybody like him as a unit?

	22-04-2004 16:20									#53
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Only a dead diplomat is a good diplomat

	22-04-2004 16:35									#54
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As long as the Embassies are automatically recreated when you are once again at peace with an AI Civ (like in the SAP2) I am not against the Diplomat as a unit. But if you have to move another Diplomat across the map to create a new one after a war I must admit it becomes a painfull process.

	22-04-2004 16:51									#55
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quote: As long as the Embassies are automatically recreated when you are once again at peace with an AI Civ (like in the SAP2) I am not against the Diplomat as a unit. But if you have to move another Diplomat across the map to create a new one after a war I must admit it becomes a painfull process.

I've already put this into the vanilla game (not posted yet). For technical reasons it was both easier and better to add a SLIC handler to dipomacy.slc rather than do it via the source.

	23-04-2004 06:01									#56
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Does the AI ever build diplomats in the vanilla game? The AI never seems to have an embassy with anyone. This limits its ability to conduct diplomacy.

	23-04-2004 12:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Does the AI ever build diplomats in the vanilla game? The AI never seems to have an embassy with anyone. This limits its ability to conduct diplomacy.

As far as I remember, the AI builds some diplomats but seems to use them more for an exploration purpose than for diplomacy.

The main problem of the AI Civs is that they are as clumsy with the human player as they are between themselves. They seem unable to conclude a peace or an alliance when it is their interest to and they are equally unable to assess the threat another nation represents. I have seen some AI Civs declaring war against a vastly superior foe in order to earn a petty advantage.

The main problem of the AI, IMO, is its difficulty to assess threats and to evaluate what is its best interest. If it could be modified, and I am confident in the fact it can, the AI would be far more interesting and efficient. But tweaking the AI is the toughest part of the sourcecode project.

	27-04-2004 02:00									#58
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Just something on the topic of mercenaries:

I think that's rather a good idea. It'd be interesting if you could hire them from a menu interface, and the number of units and units available were determined (in part) by disbanded units. Of course, the idea of 'bribing' units to become mercenaries is also a good one; it'd just be one with a fairly random chance of success. Perhaps higher for 'damaged' units?

I'm not entirely coherent right now, but I hope that what I was saying was clear enough.

	05-05-2004 05:02									#59
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abstracting unconventional units ? omg noooo why? those are one of the greatest things about CtP 1 & 2 ....
how about bringing back Space exploration and the Alien Life Proyect?

	05-05-2004 05:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by _X_ abstracting unconventional units ? omg noooo why?

I don't think all the unconventional units should be abstracted but some deserve to be. The diplomat for example, though I can admit you have to move one into a foreign territory to create the first embassy, it is a real pain to move them again to create new embassies once you are at peace with a nation. The SAP2 allow you to automatically recreate the former embassies once a war is over.

The slaver is good the way it is and I think that the fact a spy must be moved into an ennemy territory reflects adequately the difficulty of operating into a foreign country.

But it would be easier to abstract the Corporate Branch rather than having to move it from city to city... that is not the more interesting thing you have to do in a CtP2 game IMO.

The goal is to reduce the micromanagement when it doesn't add something valuable to the game. The best example is the Public Work system which is replacing the infamous Civ2 and Civ3 worker system in CtP2. When you are reaching the end of a Civ3 game most of your time is spent moving and giving a tasks to a horde of workers instead of managing your empire, a real pain as far as I am concerned.