28-01-2004 22:11									#31
	@Azeem Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thank you very much! -- your reply was extremely informative and helpful.

Best Regards,

Oz

	07-02-2004 22:41									#32
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Glad to be of help, Ozymandias.


I've changed the Unit list a little. It's a bit difficult to have all units exist in the eras that they historically emerged in since there would be too many types of units in one era so some units that actually appeared much earlier may appear a bit later. But this is done for balancing reasons and for the reason that the more advanced versions of these weapons were made at later eras. The "Rider" UU has been removed. Cavalry was much more of a Mongol specialty. I also removed the Siege Engineer for the Mongols since it would make the Mongols far too powerful and replaced it with the "Turkic Auxilary." There are many unique units since each nation's military capabilities were very different and diverse. The units in bold-faced font are the new additions.

Post-Neolithic/Bronze Age
Warrior
Spearman
Archer
Bronze Swordsman
Chariot
War Chariot (Chinese UU)
Galley
Catapult

Iron Age
Iron Swordsman
Pikeman
Composite Bow Archer
Horseman
Hwarang (Korean UU)
Mongol Light Cavalry (Mongol UU)
Sampan
Fanchuan

Middle Ages
Crossbowman
Cavalry

Bushi (Japanese UU): As the Japanese imperial court began to decline in power during the Heian Period (794-1185), the provincial warrior class, known as the "Bushi," arose. Contrary to popular belief in the West, those of the warrior class were collectively known as the "Bushi" not "Samurai." The Samurai were only a certain type of warrior within the "Bushi" class.

Zhuge-Nu (Chinese UU)
Korean Horse Archer (Korean UU)
Turkic Auxilary (Mongol UU)
Traction Trebuchet

Imperial Age
Infantry
Cannon Warship
Cannon
Ashigaru Musketeers (Japanese UU)
Samurai (Japanese UU)

Ming Swordsman (Chinese UU): The long two-handed swords of the Ming Dynasty were used throughout the centuries from the Ming to Qing era. These swords were used in both civilian martial arts and military training. General Qi Jiguang implemented the use of two-handed swords in fighting Japanese pirates, who had become a nuisance to the coasts of the Ming Empire. The concept of a two-handed sword is definitely not unique to China. The Koreans used variations similar to the Chinese and the Japanese used the long "No-Dachi" sword.

Baochuan* (Chinese UU)
Kobukson (Korean UU)
Hwach'a (Korean UU)
Keshik (Mongol UU)
Mongol Heavy Cavalry (Mongol UU)

*The Chinese name for the famous "Treasure Ships" of the Ming Dynasty were "Baochuan". Wasn't easy trying to find this info on the net.

Last edited by Azeem on 08-02-2004 at 04:17

	08-02-2004 15:34									#33
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I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole idea of clay being a luxury resource. If ever there was a natural material not in short supply, this was it.

Perhaps replace "clay" with "porcelein clay" - a white clay with a very fine grain, and used to make luxuries rather than utility items. Of course, then that 10000 clay soldier army wonder wouldnt need it.

Also, I wouldn't reduce the defence of the mongol specials. They used a kind of armour you wouldn't expect - silk. With the very tight weave they used, arrow hits would draw the material into the wound instead of cutting through the material. This made it very easy to remove the arrow heads - the stage when the real injury from arrows usually occured. Having mongol specials require silk would be an interesting twist.

If you're looking for another civ to add, Tibet has already been mentioned, but Vietnam might be another addition. I'm very fuzzy on detaisl there though.

	08-02-2004 22:09									#34
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The "Clay" resource refers to the special clays used to make the finest of pottery, not just porcelain. There are certain types of unique clays in places such as Jingdezhen and Wuxi that were used to make pottery.

The reduction of defence on Mongol UUs is a balancing issue, even if it's not historically accurate. The Mongol UUs are already far too powerful because of the distance they can cover and their attack capabilities.

Tibet is included, but not as a playable civ. Although they did become a relatively strong kingdom, they were not a real major power on par with China, Mongolia, Korea, and Japan. Information on Tibet's history of weaponry is very limited as well as Annam's.

	09-02-2004 02:38									#35
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Though most of the history of East Asia appears to have East Asian nations under a monarchy, there were actually differences in government from time and place. Although some places have generally had a king or emperor, the way government was run was not always the same.

Chiefdom - This is the initial government and is somewhat the equivalent of the initial Civ3 "Despotism" government.
*All of the great powers of East Asia emerged from tribes and "Chiefdoms" where villages and towns owe allegiance to a monarch-like chief. Contrary to popular belief, these governments were actually not very despotic, as they implemented a system of reciprocity. However, Chiefdoms operate well ONLY when territory, resources, and populations are limited. Thus when Chiefdoms grow substantially in size, they are no longer efficient and need stronger (and more despotic) central governments.

Theocracy - This government form is available early on, thus the switch from Chiefdom to a more efficient Theocracy would almost be quick.
*Theocracy in this case refers to the rule of kings that claimed to be of divine heritage or kings that also served as high priests. The line of emperors in Japan were said to be descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. In the Shang Dynasty era of China, kings were highly involved in important ritual practices such as human sacrifice.

Monarchy - Same attributes as the "Monarchy" government in Civ3.
*The "Monarchy" government in this case represents the increased organization and efficiency of governments. Rulers may or may not have continued to claim divine heritage, but had governments that were more effective in military, construction projects, and taxation.

Bureaucratic Monarchy - "Bureaucratic Monarchy" is suitable for huge empires and thus has communal corruption.
*When Ying Zheng, king of the mighty kingdom of Qin, conquered all of the warring states of what was once the fragmented Zhou Dynasty empire, he instituted a new government system. created. Realizing that the relative autonomy of the feudal lords was one of the reasons why the Zhou fragmented into quarrelling states, Ying Zheng a large government bureaucracy, strengthening the power of the Imperial government. Later dynasties would also rely on a large government bureaucracy, but rather than using the highly oppressive "Legalist" philosophy of the Qin, they would apply Confucianism to their government. The kingdom of Korea also later instituted a bureaucratic Confucian monarchy.

Feudalism - Feudalistic systems actually existed at different times in different parts of East Asia. But for the sake of simplicity, it is an "Iron Age" government.
*Feudalism actually occurred at different times in East Asian history. In Bronze Age China, feudal lords, being relatively autonomous and self-sufficent, gained significant power, which lead to the tumoltuous Warring States Period. Japan followed a similar pattern, though much later. The Daimyos of Japan, the mighty feudal lords, eventually grew so powerful that they fought amongst each other for the title of Shogun in the Sengoku Period of the 16th Century CE.

Shogunate - Though a Japanese form of government, I thought that it might add an interesting twist to add this type of government in.
*Although Shoguns ruled Japan since the decline of the Emperor's actual political power after the Heian Period, the strongest form of the Shogunate existed in the Tokugawa Period (also known as the "Edo Period"). The clever and ruthless Tokugawa Ieyasu, learning the mistakes of his predecessors, strengthened his position unlike any of the previous Shoguns. Tokugawa forced Daimyos to expend significant resources on a second home at the second capital so that they could never maintian enough resources for any significant rebellion. Tokugawa's old detractors were sent to the furthest provinces so they could not be immediate threats. In order to maintain a unified Japan and efficient central government, Tokugawa transformed the samurai into bureaucrats and created a rigid class system, causing the ruling class to be loyal to only the Shogun. As a result, the Tokugawa lasted for two hundred years as the rulers of Japan.

	10-02-2004 04:06									#36
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quote: Originally, I was going to include "Daoism" and "The Analects" as techs for this era. But I simply had them combined in "The Three Teachings" (which comes right after the "Buddhism" advance). In the Bronze Age, Daoism and Confucianism were still philosophies and were not yet truly in practice. In the Iron Age, when "The Three Teachings" (Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism) became an extremely important part of Chinese society (and other neighboring cultures as well), that was when Confucianism became the "official" ideology and when Daoism became a religion (it was originally only a philosophy).

Don't do this. "The Three Teachings" is a fairly close literal translation of the "Tripitarka", Buddhism's most holy book.

	11-02-2004 00:21									#37
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The "Three Teachings" refers to the three teachings of Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism. These "three teachings" were the most important teachings in East Asia. These three traditions were given the name "Three Teachings" by scholars of the time, thus it is fitting that they are all classified under the "Three Teachings." The Buddhism that entered the Himalayas, China, Korea, and Japan was not Theravada but Mahayana Buddhism. Most schools of Mahayana Buddhist thought (particularly Zen and Pure Land) do not consider doctrines to be extremely important. When the three traditions of Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism flowered in the Chinese Empire, they were collectively called "The Three Teachings." It has nothing to do with the Tripitarka. The reason why it comes after the Buddhism advance in this mod is to represent the establishment of Buddhism in East Asian society. The "Philosophy" advance represents Confucianism and Daoism, which emerged at the same time and began as philosophies. After Buddhism gained ground in East Asia, people of East Asian nations implemented all three in their daily lives, thus the culmination of the concept of "Three Teachings" in East Asian cultures.

	12-02-2004 02:23									#38
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i've been reading the book 1421: the year china discovered america - it would be a very interesting spin off, to have a world map around the early 15th century - where the east asian countries, especially china, had the ability and opportunity to drastically change the world. imagine if the east asians decided to take over pre-renaissance europe, or settle in the americas centuries before europe did.

	16-02-2004 07:44									#39
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Azeem were you intending to include a Turkic civilization? Or an Indian one?

It seems a little strange to have Buddhism play an important part but not have its homeland included.

The largest Buddhist complex in the world is Borobudur in Indonesia from when Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms thrived there before the advent of Islam.

I know that Hinduism's devotees are now mainly concentrated within the Indian sub-continent, but the Khmer Empire in Indochina and Srivijaya in the Indonesian archipelagoes are instances where Hindu/Buddhist cultures flourished outside the Indian sub-continent.

The influence of Indo-Iranian Turkic culture on Chinese history, science and religion is explored in a book called 'The Sextants of Beijing' by Joanna Waley-Cohen, which also seeks to debunk the myth of isolationist rejectionist China.

	16-02-2004 09:05									#40
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For the purposes of simplicity (and the limitations of the Civ3 Editor ), the mod will focus only on China, Japan, Korea, and Mongolia. Throughout Chinese history, there was significant interaction with the Turkics, Persians, and Indians, but it is not significant enough to be in the mod. Keep in mind that this mod also includes Japan and Korea, both of which did not make a lot of contact with India, Persia, or the Turkics. Many of the "tech advances" are merely conceptual (such as the "Contact: Portuagese" advance in the Sengoku scenario).

But if you're interested, I've read that there is an "India" mod in the works at CivFanatics. If you're into Indian civilization, you might want to check it out.

If only the editor had more features (especially scripted events and civ-specific tech trees)...

	17-02-2004 03:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem For the purposes of simplicity (and the limitations of the Civ3 Editor ), the mod will focus only on China, Japan, Korea, and Mongolia. Throughout Chinese history, there was significant interaction with the Turkics, Persians, and Indians, but it is not significant enough to be in the mod. Keep in mind that this mod also includes Japan and Korea, both of which did not make a lot of contact with India, Persia, or the Turkics.

O.k. , that explains the absence of the Buddha's homeland.

I always thought of Borobudur being rather like the Oracle in Civ 2, its effect petering out when Islam or Monotheism flourishes in the East, in the same way the theology advance extinguishes the usefulness of the Oracle.

I read an article recently on the discovery or development of gunpowder in China- relating it to Sogdian contacts with the Chinese in Central Asia, and the alchemical quest for the elixir of immortality. Now if only I could find the url again....

	03-03-2004 07:35									#42
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Sorry for the lack of updates. The "Empires of the East" mod is on hiatus for now. I'll get back to it later in March when I have more time. I'll also do more research since the chief aim of this mod is to represent these four nations as accurately as possible.

	08-03-2004 10:37									#43
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Azeem, if you're interested: Dom Pedro II is working on a Battlefield Asia Unit Pack or something like that over on Civfanatics. When you return to working on this scenario, you might want to have a lock at what he's done.

	08-03-2004 11:58									#44
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Thanks. I'll look into it.

	26-03-2004 01:05									#45
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I've finally got around to working on this thing again. Unfortunately, I misplaced my CD containing the unit and building graphics that I need... But I've begun altering the tech tree and adding some more improvements.

These are the new improvements and wonders I've added:
Potala Palace (finally found graphics for it )

Mountain Shrine - Requires a "Sacred Mountain" resource, the "Mountain Shrine" represents the various "Sacred Mountains" venerated in East Asian cultures.

Academy of the Arts - Towards the end of the Northern Song Dynasty, an Imperial Academy of painting was established. "Academy" painting became an entirely new category of painting on its own, as it differed greatly from the works of the Literati class or the Artisans. Though Academy students were generally from well-to-do families, there were a few peasant artists that became famous through the Academy.

Annual Festival - An "edict" improvement, "Annual Festivals" increase culture and happiness.