14-12-2003 09:43									#1
	ND Negotiations Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have received the PM from Togas which was a forwarded PM from Darekill. I'd like very much to meet Darekill in chat and I'll try to handle this.

Here's my chat with E_T on the subject so everyone knows what I'm thinking here:

quote: E_T> Arnie, you here? Arnelos_civ3> yeah E_T> What's the deal with this PM from ND? Arnelos_civ3> ND sent a PM? Arnelos_civ3> I better go look Arnelos_civ3> I'm against Arnelos_civ3> all ND wants is for us to prevent them from having to take Pamplona by force... no deal Arnelos_civ3> Now, it's possible that this could help them in a future conflict against GoW... to do so, however, we want that in writing Arnelos_civ3> I'd be willing to do this if ND would agree *in writing* to ally with GS Arnelos_civ3> assuming GS would agree to such an arrangement E_T> what's this about GoW finishing their contract and then turning on ND Arnelos_civ3> unless we and/or GS get something OUT OF ND in return for helping them take our cities... no deal Arnelos_civ3> it is apparent that GoW's "contract" includes that they are working for Legoland and/or ND against RP Team and that they are allied with ND (and probably Lego as well) for the duration of said contract E_T> and needing us off of Bob to "finish the contract" Arnelos_civ3> when the contract is fulfilled (RP is gone from Bob), GoW is no longer allied to Lego or ND Arnelos_civ3> it is presumed by multiple parties that Legoland has purchased the services of GoW to take out ND next... this is only speculation, however E_T> so, ND seens to have gotten wind of this possibility and want to save units for teh fight against GoW Arnelos_civ3> perhaps ND agrees with this speculation, though... Arnelos_civ3> EXACTLY Arnelos_civ3> thing is, ND better pay up to GS/RP if they want our help with this... granted, ND and GS/RP have a mutual interest, but we're not giving those cities to ND for free Arnelos_civ3> that's my take on it E_T> maybe ND has been asking too much for their stolen luxuries Arnelos_civ3> perhaps Arnelos_civ3> who knows Arnelos_civ3> ND does not negotiate fairly, we already knew that Arnelos_civ3> thing is, if ND really believes they're about to get screwed by GoW and Lego, this is our time to squeeze them for what they want E_T> it seems that this offer is the same as what GoW was also wanting Arnelos_civ3> yup Arnelos_civ3> both want to screw the other one over the moment RP TEam is dead Arnelos_civ3> but neither want to pay the price for taking Pamplona E_T> maybe they are suffering from massive WW Arnelos_civ3> I sure as hell hope so Arnelos_civ3> like I said, we (oddly enough) have the strong hand here E_T> from what I've noticed, in the ISDG, when our troops are in their territory, is when the WW goes up Arnelos_civ3> yup Arnelos_civ3> they've had troops in our territory for so long...

My plan is to outright tell ND that we are being gifted a city in GS in northern Estonia for the continued survival of the RP Team. We also tell them, straight-out, that Glory of War has already approached us numerous times about trying to sign a seperate peace with us and we have consistently turned them down because of the unreasonable nature of their demands.

As for Neu Demogyptica, we will turn down this specific offer of terms, but we will let them know the following:

1. It is our belief that from our observations of GoW and especially Legoland behavior, that Legoland intends to employ GoW against ND in the immediate future. Whether Glory of War would actually do such a thing is difficult to tell, given their previously good relations with ND, but it is entirely possible. Our suspicion that this was their plan was strengthened when GS and RP conducted our own negotiations with Legoland in which Legoland seemed to want to hint at the idea that perhaps GS (and even RP) could aid them in the future on Bob.

2. If the future of Bob is indeed to be a GoW/Lego-ND war, as we suspect it very well could be, GS/RP and ND have a powerful mutual interest in preventing a Legoland/GoW victory. That said, GS/RP have no interest in simply handing over RP and GS territory on Bob without a struggle, even given that mutual interest, unless ND is willing to put IN WRITING an alliance agreement with GS and RP Team concerning future actions by GoW and Legoland (or even Vox) against our peoples. Such an alliance (or other binding agreement on ND) would need to be negotiated and signed before GS and/or RP would perform a SINGLE action aiding ND in a seperate peace or any war they may experience at the hands of GoW and/or Legoland.

As for responding to their PM, I'm going go ahead and respond to their PM some missive about how the team is considering their proposal and I'd like to meet in chat with Darekill or trade e-mails with him on the subject (I have his e-mail now, btw).

What we REALLY need to do is consult with GS about this opportunity and discuss with them what might be optimal to ask of ND in return for our assistance. Then I can inform Darekill of that and perhaps we can conduct either ND-RP negotiations or, if we think ND is open to the idea, ND-RP-GS negotiations of a binding agreement.

Does anyone have any specific suggestions?

	14-12-2003 10:09									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

making them pay would be good, but what should we ack for, that is within reason?

As I understand it, we need a cash infusion. That would be a good faith start, that and Immediate peace.

After that, we can try to work something out, but I wouldn't ask for too much or we won't get anything.

E_T

	14-12-2003 10:38									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just sent this to Darekill as an initial message:

quote: Darekill, Togas forwarded your message to a few of us and I have posted in our forum about it and to start a discussion on the issue. For future reference, I'm still (AFAIK) the "Chief Ambassador of the Crown" and, ironically, I had jus been calling for us to begin negotiations with ND when you sent your PM to Togas - convenient. I should note that Togas remains in control of the team as a whole. Since Togas is gone (through tomorrow) BigFree is standing in for him as being in charge of our unit movement and other issues. As another heads up, I will be out of town for about 3-4 days driving across the United States home for Christmas next week.... so when that happens, please consult with Aidun for any RP Diplomacy (along with Togas). If you want, just go ahead and CC Togas and Aidun on any messages you would send me (so we're sure our team gets them). Now, about your proposal, I'd like to have our team discuss it, but here's my thoughts: I'm open to RP Team doing something like this as a favor for Neu Demogyptica because I think that we may very well have a mutual interest in the future, but RP Team won't do this favor without a price. We're going to want SOMETHING in return for saving you the trouble of beating what's left of us. Afterall, we really have nothing left to lose.... what's the incentive for us to help you unless we (or our ally GS) gets something in return? What you give in return may even be as inconsequential as a written agreement regarding something important to our mutual interest and something you'd want to do ANYWAYS, so I'd like to discuss it with you. That said, I think the important message is that while I can't fully speak for the team on this yet without a discussion, I'm at least personally open to the idea of doing this favor for Neu Demogyptica if we can work something out. My e-mail is arnelos@aol.com if you want to send me anything on it (I'd prefer that to PM, but either works). If we could meet in chat at some point in the next few days, that would work even better. Let me know. - Arnelos

	14-12-2003 10:40									#4
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WE NEED TO CONTACT GS ABOUT THIS

I'll get on that, but I'd appreciate help from Aidun since he's been most "on the ball" with that lately.

	14-12-2003 11:13									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Just had a chat with OctavianX of Gathering Storm in #MilOps, who has posted this chatlog to the GS forum:

quote: Arnelos> Octavian_X - RP Team needs to discuss with GS a diplomatic proposal sent to us by ND Octavian_X> ok. Arnelos> please post that in your forum Octavian_X> I'll do so. Arnelos> ND wants a seperate peace with GS/RP Arnelos> they seem worried about a GoW backstab Arnelos> this is perfect Octavian_X> really? that's fascinating... Arnelos> It's funny... I started making some noise in the RP Team forum about how we should probably start negotiations with ND... and ND contacts US! Arnelos> so I've jumped on the chance... Arnelos> ND wants us to do them the favor of helping them take Pamplona, but to also help them stop GoW for getting any more territory in Southern Bob and to work against GoW... I've told ND tentatively that RP Team is interested, but that we Arnelos> 'll want something in return Arnelos> we need to negotiate that Arnelos> in addition... my idea I've floated inside RP Team is that it might be possible to get ND to agree *in writing* to some form of binding agreement with Gathering Storm concerning the future if RP Team helps them with this now Arnelos> it's an idea... Arnelos> but needs much discussion by RP and GS Octavian_X> That's great news! Arnelos> and then we need to negotiate it with ND Octavian_X> I'll relay this information immeadiately. Arnelos> good Arnelos> just post what I've said here Octavian_X> posted. Arnelos> ok, thanks Arnelos> I think that Legoland and GoW have been preparing to backstab ND for some time... if ND is actually serious about looking for a seperate peace and getting us to thwart GoW, they may have realized this Arnelos> if ND is REALLY worried about a Legoland-GoW alliance, it may even be possible to move ND toward an alliance with GS Arnelos> which might actually get GS a source of saltpeter in Southern Bob Arnelos> that's my thought, anyways Arnelos> it's a long shot, but I'd love to take it Octavian_X> And I thouight this game couldn't get any more interesting... Arnelos> we already tried negotiating with Legoland, we already tried negotiating with GoW and both gave us the cold shoulder... if ND is willing, I think it's clear who's the rusty third wheel of their alliance afterall Arnelos> but it will depend greatly on whether ND is willing to give something in return for our favor... that will prove just how much they really need it Octavian_X> If we're lucky, I think, we can secure RP a homeland on Bob after all. Arnelos> we'll see Arnelos> I'm not as optimistic on that count until we move ND in that direction Arnelos> I think they might be willing to concede that, but that's not where their negotiating stance is likely to start Arnelos> we've learned in the past that ND does not typically negotiate "fairly"... of course, since RP hasn't typically negotiated "fairly", either... it made for a rather bad relationship before Octavian_X> I think RP has a good chance. Call it 'repirations for previous atrocities against our nation' in return for RP's support. Octavian_X> heh Arnelos> we'll have to see... I think that if ND truly realizes they'r about to get gang-banged by GoW and Legoland, they might need GS and/or RP to do them a favor bad enough that they'll be willing to concede more than they'd want to Arnelos> that's what I'm banking on, anyways Octavian_X> Only time will tell, I guess. Arnelos> go ahead and post all of this to the GS forum, too... they should hear our discussion on this Arnelos> I'd love to discuss this with the rest of GS... we really should have a team chat Arnelos> Togas gets back tomorrow night Arnelos> perhaps tomorrow or Monday? Arnelos> I'm probably leaving town by Thursday, so definately before then Arnelos> ok, I need to take off Octavian_X> ok. Octavian_X> Hope we can arrange a chat soon... Octavian_X> g'night

	14-12-2003 12:14									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmmm, maybe we can see about slipping a little of this Info to GoW, just something to make them think....

Maybe a "Mispoken responce" in the wrong chat channel, at the right time.

E_T

	14-12-2003 13:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Hmmm, maybe we can see about slipping a little of this Info to GoW, just something to make them think.... Maybe a "Mispoken responce" in the wrong chat channel, at the right time. E_T

I think that would actually help down the road. But for NOW, it's imperative that we keep this under wraps. I'd like to get ND to actually AGREE and SIGN something before we get GoW on their case.

Too many things could go wrong if we start trying to play around with letting GoW know what's really up. Besides, we actually want GoW to believe that their super evil plan of death and mayhem is still working perfectly according to plan if we can at all manage it.

Ideally, we want the element of surprise if we're actually going to pull something like this off. I do NOT want GoW to suspect it's coming. I want GoW and Legoland to both fully believe that everything is hunky dory unless and until something flies in their face and they freak - as was the case with the Gathering Storm alliance.

Besides, if this entire thing is a GoW-ND plot, if we're communicating ONLY with ND and not with GoW, GoW will naturally start to get suspicious if what ND is feeding them is really the truth. If GoW hears absolutely nothing from us, they're bound to grow a little suspicious if they actually KNOW that something is up (or think they know).

Meanwhile, if GoW knows nothing (as we want), then I certainly don't want to tip them off. There are too many things GoW could do to screw everything up if they get suspicious and start trying to anticipate what might be going on.

Right now, hardly anyone is paying any attention to the PTWDG compared to other demogames and EVERYONE believes that RP Team isn't even involved anymore other than hitting "end turn" each turn. I want that impression to continue among everyone out there other than GS and ND right now and only for the purpose of these negotiations.

That means that all us, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF US IN FREQUENT CONTACT WITH MASTER ZEN, better just resist the temptation to tell MZ every stupid thing you know!!! If I learn about anyone on this team BRAGGING to Master Zen or any member of Glory of War, Legoland, or Vox Controli that RP Team "might not be as dead as they think" or "still has a role to play", or "you just wait" or any other incredibly STUPID thing like that, I am NOT going to be happy!

Loose lips sink ships - remember it!

As far as I want anyone outside of GS and ND to be concerned, RP Team is effectively dead and no-one in this forum hardly cares anymore. That's our story and I hope we can stick to it. It's more likely that no-one will even care to ASK about RP Team anymore and we shouldn't bring it up... that will, on its own, place us "under the radar" as DAVOUT and Oliverfa used to insist that RP Team should be. In this case, their ancient advice is perfectly suitable.

If RP Team has a role left to play, I want it to come out of absolutely no-where to the teams upon which it is used, known only to those teams to which its use is meant as an aid.

The value of our aid may very well be depressed significantly without the element of surprise to back it up.

	14-12-2003 14:19									#8
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From Darekill:

quote: Thank you for your quick response. I'm posting your wish to chat with us in our forum and will come back as soon as we know when such a chat is convenient for us. Otherwise we'll keep PM Contact.

	14-12-2003 18:49									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Things have gone fast. Sorry for not being available for help, I got some appointments in RL. Arnelos, I'm at your service! Though I hope the bulk of the work will be after monday evening. Then my holiday will in fact begin.

Sorry for not posting our chat. I had no time left after the caht with GS and I couldn't do it in the meanwhile. I hoped that BigFree could make up what we had agreed upon from my explanation to the GS-ers. I'll post it now.

We need to make decisions real fast now. Though, they know in what direction we are already thinking and that is most important of all.

Hope to see you in chat when you have finished watching the news on CNN.

Aidun

	14-12-2003 20:09									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Aidun Hope to see you in chat when you have finished watching the news on CNN.

That's where I've been the past few hours. You think I'd miss this for the world?

	15-12-2003 03:59									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, but there was no more news when I was writing it. I had just watched the entire press conference of Paul Bremmer. I wouldn't miss it too

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 15-12-2003 at 04:33

	15-12-2003 05:09									#12
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A PM from Darekill that was sent to Togas with his comment and BigFree's response to it:

quote: Togas's Comment Please review and respond to ND about this. Perhaps we can negotiate something better. However, I am curious as to why they are making this offer and it would be wise of us to chat with them to find out. --Togas

quote: Darekills PM: Darekill wrote on 12-12-2003 09:25: Hello people of Spain, hello Togas. I’m here on a mission to end this war between us. We have a plan that could ensure the most efficient way of ending this nightmare beween us. As you probably know GS is pulling out of Borconia which leaves you alone. I can’t see how you can stand against the armies of GoW and ND but I see that it will cost us dearly to win in a military style. 1. We do this on our own. GoW is not involved to this plan. 2. We try to save the troops of both, Spain and ND. 3. We try to keep Spain alive without sharing the ground of Borconia with it. 4. We are tired of playing the frontranks for GoW. What can we do? The scenario first. We think that GS will give you an exile on north Stormia. We do not know this but we guess it is the case. Sooner or later, you will lose all the citys on borconia as this is now unevitable. We will not break our alliance and neither will you do we supose. If you agree to this points we have come to the folowing plan. 1. You gift toledo either to us, to GS or you burn it down. You must get rid of this city that is important as you’ll soon see. 2. You leave Pamplona devoid of all Troops. 3. We will enter Pamplona so your palace jumps over to north Stormia since there is no other spanish city on Borconia anymore. 4. We will leave the city in the same turn and send you an accepted peace offer which you can accept too. 5. We block the way to Pamplona for the GoW so they can not enter the empty city. 6. Now you reenter the city with all your troops and gift Pamplona to us. All your Troops and your Palace is now in the Exil. Do you think we can work out such a plan. Remember we will take your citys on Borconia anyway. This way would ensure that you can keep your army intact. We asure you that we would neither rename Pamplona nor raze it. The same goes for Toledo if you would gift it to us. If you decide to gift us Toledo we must have peace by that time to so that the inhabitants of Toledo become Neu Demogyptians. I give you my word that we do not try to trick you to leave Pamplona to slaughter your troops. We would not do that. Darekill Ambasador to spain

quote: BigFree's response to it BigFree wrote: That is not a good deal. Screw them. GS gave up on us too soon. GS made the tactical mistake of trying to withdraw their Knights onto our Forrest itle near Pamplona...they were being chickenns as much as GoW was and did not want to risk their troops in an attack. Screw all of them! I say we try to hold Pamplona, then if ND or GoW takes it, then oh well, our Capital will move to North Stormia anyways. What do we need with those troops on North Stormia? they will only bog down our effort to do max research. Lets make ND/GoW/Lego pay with blood to take Spains land.

My opinion on this all:

I agree that the deal is not good. This is giving them our cities for free. If they want the rest of Spain they have to fight for it and pay with blood. We have to make this clear to ND. If we have peace, we demand that they retreat from our territory - if they are on it - and leave any of our cities on Bob alone. So easy it is, nothing more.

Palace jumps and whatever else is, even though the offer to help us with our palace jump is very kind, not their business but that of the alliance.

We must maintain our cities on Bob, and if their greed exceeds their capacity to think, they have to fight for it.

This must but be told to ND by the one of us with the greatest diplomatic skills: a good negotiator who can keep a kind face. As we have seen in the past, that is the best way to approach them.

Please do not undertake any negotiation untill we have a detailde consensus here.

Aidun

	15-12-2003 05:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A PM from Cort Haus that was sent to BigFree and me:

quote: Cort Haus wrote on 13-12-2003 15:47: Arnelos, I've been thinking long and hard about the current balance of forces on Bob, and in the world. On Bob, the recent carnage has left RP in a far stronger position than they were a few turns ago, and have also left Lego in a commanding game position. Now may be the time for all four nations in the Bobian war to make a final settlement. I believe that RP could negotiate a deal with GoW and ND which grants peace and land rights to RP on Bob, plus a generous tech and luxury package to RP and GS in exchange for existing cities (including Pamp, Barca, New Madrid). RP palace moves to Miller Town where they have 5 cities on Estonia, plus a negotiable token city presence on Bob - to be decided amongst the Bobians. GS would have no part in those land negotiations. GS also assures GoW and ND that they will not intervene or land on Bob while ND and GoW go and take Lego down a peg or two. (destroying Bach and Sistine, for example) I've posted the this thinking on our private forum for our team to consider - so this is just an idea and not our team position - but I think both teams should be thinking about this option. If GS and RP like it, we can push it at GoW and ND to see what they think. We have to move fast - I feel that the participants in this war should not be wasting a single shield on each other that they now should be saving for Lego. Regards, Cort Haus cc BigFree, Aidun

Aidun