15-12-2003 18:27									#361
	Support Apolyton

Agathon is back

	15-12-2003 18:40									#362
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: But these people are sadly deluded if they believe that they are going to be allowed to determine their own future.

I'm not sure that the US can stop them anymore. Before the capture of Saddam, Sistani nearly thwarted the US' plans for an undemocratic national assembly. Now that the Shia no longer have to fear for the "return of Saddam," they'll be much more politically active, and thus the occupation authorities will have to respond to them and their leaders. I wouldn't be suprised if they do a 180 on the whole election agenda.

	15-12-2003 18:46									#363
	Remove this text

quote: But there's no point in undermining an international order in the name of upholding it. And when the international order is "you must obey the rules, but we don't have to" there isn't much point in having rules.

Shrub is forging a new international order. Iraq is the perfect "rogue state" to attack - its neighbors hate its gov't, which is run by a homicidal manic who used to be our boy, but stopped listening to us. Invading Iraq is intended to force the other states of the world to get in line.

	15-12-2003 19:03									#364
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Winston My justification for supporting the war was that Iraq was ruled by a ruthless dictator who oppressed his own people, threatened his neighbours, awarded families of Palestinian suicide bombers and was a continued threat to peace, stability and economic development in the entire region. I wanted to see that changed.

When a fight breaks out in the playground one possible thing to do is to look at the reasons Tommy has to hit Billy and to decide whether you think thet are good reasons or not.

But no sensible person does that.

Instead they separate Tommy and Billy, tell them fighting is wrong and go into the dispute between the boys so as to resolve it by other means.

This may involve the use of force. In which case the force used will be sanctioned by rules established by all and employed in support of the rules, not in support of ad hoc subjective evaluations.

Is it different when the protagonists are the political leaders of two or more nation states? Yes, it has been.

And has that been a good idea? No, war rides in full honour with pestilence and death among the horsemen of the apocalipse. It has brought untold misery to a huge multitude.

War has ever been the sport of kings. The fact that the political leaders here are a president and a prime minister does not change that. And agreeing with the reasons which led them to indulge themselves in their sport does not justify the fight any more than it justifies Billy and Tommy.

We need to move on. War between nation states is an evil whatever motivates it. Pick a few wars from the history books and establish whether you agree with the motivation of the aggressor. The answer will differ from person to person and from one war to the next. Instead of arguing the toss about where the moral high ground lies we need to establish some standards among ourselves for what constitutes anti-social behaviour on the part of national administrations and then we need a supra-national method of policing those standards.

And this is not beyond us. Before the Bush/Blair absurdity there had been some really hopeful signs that we were making progress down that road. Virtually all the world joined in putting a stop to the playground fight between the serbs and croats. And we actualy got as far as establishing an international court.

Now it is going to take a while to get back to attempting such things. Because with someone as self indulgent as Bush leading the biggest military power all the rest of us have got to be very leery as to the further ways he is going to find to throw his weight around.

But we really have to do so.

Because if we fail to find a way to end wars between nation states the next big one will end us.

	15-12-2003 19:27									#365
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was going to comment, but why bother? Go to the arab news sites and read their reaction to his capture. At the very least, they are putting out unbiased articles- a sure sign that they're pleased with the situation.

	15-12-2003 19:29									#366
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with Spencer -- the majority of Iraqis for instance, seem to be very happy with this news.

	15-12-2003 19:41									#367
	Increase Your PM Length

They are happy, of course -- who wouldn't be? After all, Saddam was an evil dictator who oppressed his own people and who lead his nation into some disastrous wars.

This does not mean that they are happy with the presence of the invaders, or that democracy now is waiting at the next corner.

	15-12-2003 19:42									#368
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: we need to establish some standards among ourselves for what constitutes anti-social behaviour on the part of national administrations and then we need a supra-national method of policing those standards.

How would this be achieved?

It's all fine talking idealistically but you're not considering how the hell that happen.

Something needs to be done!

	15-12-2003 20:19									#373
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark

This picture would be great to throw in whenever someting bad happens to US or Israel

	15-12-2003 20:21									#374
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Establishing a rule of law among nations and the institutions to police it is not something that will happen overnight.

Maybe we need a few hundred years for the job.

But the UN has, at least, got established.

And rapid communications has put us all in touch with each other. That is a huge change and does seem to me to reduce mutual suspicions and tensions rather than to increase them.

A consensus did seem to appear that what was happening in the Balkans was wrong and that the world at large ought to do something about it.

We did not stand back and let those squabbles reach their own conclusion.

And no individual nation state charged in.

Some countries participated in what was done more actively and some less. But there was discussion and I do not think anyone would describe what happened as a war between nation states.

I thought the establishment of an international court to try those whose conduct had fallen short of what is expected to-day from political leaders was, in particular, a sign that some idea of a rule of law among nations might be starting to emerge.

And none, I think, dissented from that.

Now what happened in the Balkans was, perhaps, a much clearer case. Because the former Yugoslavia had disintergrated. Which, perhaps, made sovereign immunity less of a deterent to taking action.

But once it becomes accepted that wanton killing on a large scale is unacceptable then that principle will get itself applied within a state as well as when a state disintegrates.

So my answer to how the hell that happen is for all of us to demand of our political leaders that they only resort to force when they can forge a consensus in the UN.

And we develop the code of conduct that administrations must abide by as all systems of law are devised by argument in the UN.

Whether I am right to think that a code of conduct for the administrations who rule countries will emerge by that method over time or not I do not know. But it will stop wars between nation states in the meantime.

And if we are going to need a few hundred years to work these things out the really urgent thing is to avoid such wars in the meantime.

	15-12-2003 20:25									#375
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Don't the thumbs up mean something completely different in Arabic traditions. Something about sticking it to your [censored]

	15-12-2003 20:29									#376
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Don't the thumbs up mean something completely different in Arabic traditions. Something about sticking it to your [censored]

That was discussed back in April. Apparently theyre quite aware of what it means in the West, and when they use it to Westerners, it means approval.

Kinda like Id be careful talking about a "s-h-a-g" carpet in to some Brits

Which, BTW, poly censors, making it very difficult to discuss US 1970's decor

	15-12-2003 20:32									#377
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid This picture would be great to throw in whenever someting bad happens to US or Israel

Except for the fact that its from Iraq, and what they were reacting to was something quite different.

	15-12-2003 20:34									#378
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader A consensus did seem to appear that what was happening in the Balkans was wrong and that the world at large ought to do something about it. We did not stand back and let those squabbles reach their own conclusion. And no individual nation state charged in. .

NATO charged in without sanction from the UNSC, which refused to act. How is that different from the coalition that went into Iraq, except that NATO was a formal military alliance? NATO had no more standing under international law then the "coalition of the willing"

	15-12-2003 20:36									#379
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Except for the fact that its from Iraq, and what they were reacting to was something quite different.

Yes I know, but imagine the response to this picture accompanying the headline "120 Americans killed in terrorist attack"

	15-12-2003 20:39									#381
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Yes I know, but imagine the response to this picture accompanying the headline "120 Americans killed in terrorist attack"

Note: Rantissi, head of Hamas, says US will pay for capturing Saddam. Not ALL arabs are happy with this. I didnt mean to imply they all were.

	15-12-2003 20:41									#382
	Increase Your PM Length

Interantional law would be a great thing, but not in the world as it currently is. I think that when China gets a little more powerful and mainstream, and the EU gets its act together and becomes a major power, there will be an interantional system

The problem, notne of that will happem for a least 50 years.

The UN, HA. If they want to go for some humanitarian missions go ahead, in all other instances they are hopeless faileures.

-Pat

	15-12-2003 20:55									#383
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

LOTM, it was just meant as a joke, how a journalist could use the pictures out of context to create an opinion. Just to make it more obvious I'm just joking around here:


"Iraq lifts ban on porn"

	15-12-2003 21:01									#384
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The reaction in Nassiriyah ( a mainly Shiite city in southern Iraq) Via Oxblog


"It took about 30 seconds for THE rumor to spread through our compound. THE rumor, if true, would be the biggest story in Iraq: we had Saddam.

It took about 60 seconds for the first celebratory gunfire to begin. It hasn't stopped. It is now so constant that all of our workers--who had already stopped working and forced their way into our normally off-limits kitchen (where our TV is)--came in to watch the news. Its probably better that way...the sky is raining bullets. I gladly stepped aside for them to watch--this is their day.

It took about 5 minutes for every car in Nasiriyah to grind to a halt, horns honking, people getting out and dancing in the streets. I kept thinking to myself "I hope this one turns out to be true..."

It took about 20 minutes for an official here to get through to Baghdad and confirm that the news was true."

This is the last bind to their terrible, recent history, and that bind has now been cut. The people here are ecstatic. People are dancing in the streets, honking their horns, firing weapons non-stop, smiling, hugging, and lord knows what else.

There's still a lot of work to be done here, but for the first time since I've been here I think I'm going to take a lengthy break in the middle of the day, and just kinda enjoy myself with the Iraqis that work here. I feel so very fortunate to be here, among them, as they celebrate. "

	15-12-2003 21:04									#385
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

i will never understand why people fire off automatic weapons in celebration.

	15-12-2003 21:04									#386
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I do not contend that what happened about the Balkans was a perfect example of police action in support of an established rule of law. Nor would I, or anyone, hold up the UN as being effective.

The thing to say about the UN is that it has managed to stay in existence long enough to have got established.

Which is to say a good deal. It is a newish idea. It's predecessor, the League of Nations, failed altogether. But even that was an advance over the situatiuon when there was no such body.

So we have the chance to build on something. Inadequate as it yet is.

And while I agree that there was a period when no-one was doing anything about the Balkans what finally was done had the support of a large number of nation states and was actively opposed by none. Even those targeted by the intervention pretty well came to acknowledge that what was done was necessary.

Nothing like that had been done before and, once again, there is something which could be built upon.

NATO has lost its reason d'etre but the role it fulfilled in the cas of the Balkans was a good one. The pre-existing political and military arrangements allowed co-operative police actions. And the need for a wide consensus distanced what was done quite a lot from narrow state self interests.

Maybe each continent needs a NATO>

Anyway, faltering as these steps may be they seem to me to provide the beginnings.

The Iraq war, by contrast, just takes us straight back to war between nation states. Governed solely by real politick

	15-12-2003 21:14									#387
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Yes I know, but imagine the response to this picture accompanying the headline "120 Americans killed in terrorist attack"

The juxtaposition of your post and LotM's posting of people celebrating right after has the unintentional effect of being very funny. [In a warped way.]

	15-12-2003 21:24									#388
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I do not contend that what happened about the Balkans was a perfect example of police action in support of an established rule of law. Nor would I, or anyone, hold up the UN as being effective. The thing to say about the UN is that it has managed to stay in existence long enough to have got established. Which is to say a good deal. It is a newish idea. It's predecessor, the League of Nations, failed altogether. But even that was an advance over the situatiuon when there was no such body. So we have the chance to build on something. Inadequate as it yet is. And while I agree that there was a period when no-one was doing anything about the Balkans what finally was done had the support of a large number of nation states and was actively opposed by none. Even those targeted by the intervention pretty well came to acknowledge that what was done was necessary. Nothing like that had been done before and, once again, there is something which could be built upon. NATO has lost its reason d'etre but the role it fulfilled in the cas of the Balkans was a good one. The pre-existing political and military arrangements allowed co-operative police actions. And the need for a wide consensus distanced what was done quite a lot from narrow state self interests. Maybe each continent needs a NATO> Anyway, faltering as these steps may be they seem to me to provide the beginnings. The Iraq war, by contrast, just takes us straight back to war between nation states. Governed solely by real politick

The Govt of Yugoslavia was NOT a member of NATO. As far as it was concerned, NATO was just a collection nation states. Governed soley be realpolitick. No different from the coalition of the willing acting in Iraq.

	15-12-2003 21:31									#389
	Support Apolyton

What about the subsequent establishment of a court Theoden, King?

Would you accept that to have won full acceptance?

It has the look of a truly international institution enjoying the acceptance of the whole community and even of some that it has tried.

It has also done well, in my eyes, by being concerned with evidence - as oppopsed to speech making, a la Nuremburg.

	15-12-2003 21:35									#390
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Spokeswoman for French President Jacques Chirac

The president is delighted at the arrest of Saddam Hussein.

This is a major event which should strongly contribute to the democratisation and the stabilisation of Iraq, and allow the Iraqis to once more be masters of their destiny in a sovereign Iraq. "


I can agree with that.