14-12-2003 23:08									#1
	Things to Borrow From Other Games Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. Imperialism 1's simultaneous trading market system. A real market system where supply and demand rule, unlike the Civ system.

In Imperialism, you must use Labour (of three different levels of skill, so that Britain's higlhly trained workforce beats Russian clodhoppers)to collect timber, Labour to process the lumber into timber, and more labour to turn lumber into finished wood products. You can sell at all three levels, raw resource, processed, and finished product based on 'does anyone want it'.

In Civ, luxury resources would have to be made more important to make workers stay happy, so that Tea or Coffee is always in greater demand than, say, Copper.

2. Europa Universalis 2 has a lot of good influences for Civ, especially in making alliances, and relations, and all the things that affect relations.

The semi-mystical 'Stability' number. affected and affecting so many things, might be interesting in Civ (under whatever name), but would be better if it was a value out of 100, and not only 7 possibilities like in EU2.

3. Combat AI that follows set strategies or 'personalities' like in the old SSG game Warlords 2, where the Warlord-level computer opponents could be given fun personalities (pachydermal: slow inevitable buildup of powerful expensive units, ratsbane:makes war 'on the cheap', betrays alliances, tries to quickly overwhelm poorly defended cities, Sir Pureheart: like the Gaians from SMAC, he hates pollution, treaty-breakers, likes to fight 'honorably', Horselord: Like to have a highly mobile army of the fastest available units, always tries to 'outflank' you)

These AI combat styles could be set or random.

4. Rail capacity like in any number of games. Improvements and tech (Steam, Electric, Monorail, Magnetic) increase this capacity.

5. Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: The social engineering screen for changing governments needs to be in Civ IV but with more options. Also, the Units Workshop would be cool, especially if there where some default culture specific names for the units we make up.


Most Important: Units that work, and work for a long enough period that you can build and use a lot of them. There should always be 'a point' to make new units and a useful purpose for them (I'm thinking of the Civ 2 aircraft carrier and dragoon here).

	14-12-2003 23:17									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No to the trade system you proposed.

Yes to a more power diplomacy system.

No to "rail capacity".

No to SMAC-style social engineering (luckily, this will never happen).

	15-12-2003 00:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

umm any reasons?

I can understan wanting to keep things simple if you don't like trading /econ games but why the fork don't you like rail capacity?

You know, if you have a capacity of 20 you can send 20 infantry or twenty K of coal or 5 tanks...instead of just instantly teleporting stuff to the farthest frontiers.

	15-12-2003 00:17									#4
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Rail capacity would be difficult/impossible to implement given the current tile improvement system, would screw over the AI, and would mess up the pathing algorithm. Plus, it wouldn't really prevent that much movement once you have everything railroaded.

	15-12-2003 01:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Rail capacity would be difficult/impossible to implement given the current tile improvement system, would screw over the AI, and would mess up the pathing algorithm. Plus, it wouldn't really prevent that much movement once you have everything railroaded.

Since this thread is about borrowing from other games, I see a nice way to implement railroad capacity. Just have an SR-pool (strategic redeployment pool) like many strategic-level wargames.


Integrate this with the "public work" system advocated by some: public works + econ level = infrastructure capacity of your nation. You could then use this number to determine how much units can move by railroad. I'm no expert but I guess the AI could handle it.

	15-12-2003 02:47									#6
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Rail capacity would be difficult/impossible to implement given the current tile improvement system, would screw over the AI, and would mess up the pathing algorithm. Plus, it wouldn't really prevent that much movement once you have everything railroaded.

This sounds like more of a call to dump the "current tile improvment system."

Rails should never cover every square mile of a nation. It's one of the things that people have been complaining about in Civ 3 since day one.

Suggestions have included an upkeep cost for rail tiles, as well as the absolute necessity of having rails boost ONLY movement, and not any sort of production. Also, do away with infinite movement.

Doing away with infinite movement could very well adderss the problems of rails without having to implement a rail use cap.

As for SMAC style government, there are good discussions about this in a few threads here, and I think it's a great idea.

I haven't played EU or Imperialism, but the types of labor and such sounds like too much hassle for the Civ system if we had to worry about it directly. Perhaps have the education level of your civs have an impact on production levels. Education level would be figured based on population with libraries and universities and such. Too dumb a populace, and production suffers. If everyone is perched in an ivory tower, then production declines, in part to simulate the fact that the "salt of the earth worker" isn't out there, and in part to keep the late game production levels (when everyone will likely have all the education based improvements and huge populations) in balance.

	15-12-2003 03:59									#7
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I think upkeep is the simplest, best solution.

	15-12-2003 04:12									#8
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skywalker, please don't say something without the arguments, since it's the arguments that are interesting here

I think Civ IV could learn from Galactic Civilizations for:
- trading
- United Nations, reputation and all the diplomacy
- interface
- minor civilizations
- random events (maybe, depends how it's used)
- the possibility of orienting your economy: pro-demography, pro-industry...
- multi-threaded AI
- the possibility to finance others' wars!

Last edited by Trifna on 15-12-2003 at 09:34

	16-12-2003 01:38									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it would be cool to have 'centres of trade', like in EU. These extremely valuable provinces add a lot to the strategic element.

Suppose that you designate a certain city as a CoT. This city then forms mini-trade routes with all nearby cities, and it can then form major trade routes with other centres of trade.

	20-12-2003 03:55									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Suppose that you designate a certain city as a CoT. This city then forms mini-trade routes with all nearby cities, and it can then form major trade routes with other centres of trade.

But of course, that designation would come as a large cost to your civilization unless of course your civ traits were Mercantilistic, correct?
-
As for rail capacity, I do agree that it seems only practical to limit the amount of people who can ride the rails to a certain level for each section of track... after say, 5 units have passed over a certain section in one turn, they should be able to move no more unless certain advances are discovered.
-
I would also suggest adding air capacity to the game... basically designating air routes for supplies in the game.
For example: Armor Units in Washington can be put onto a Cargo Plain and flown to the front in Tripoli, or something of that sort.

	20-12-2003 06:12									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Unit Workshop!
Social Engineering!
Custom Civs!

-Jam

	20-12-2003 06:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Stacked Movement/Combat
Scripting


I leave Public Works out because otherwise Civ4 might be nearly as good as CtP2.5.

	20-12-2003 06:38									#13
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quote: I leave Public Works out because otherwise Civ4 might be nearly as good as CtP2.5.

I'd prefer it if they also left out Stacked Movement/Combat. But too much has been posted here: Soren J. and Mike B. have undoubtedly got the idea by now.

Let's hassle them about scripting. It's a lot of work to put in a scripting language. That'll keep them busy.

	20-12-2003 09:09									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Fosse Rails should never cover every square mile of a nation. It's one of the things that people have been complaining about in Civ 3 since day one.

Try day one of Civ1...

quote: Suggestions have included an upkeep cost for rail tiles, as well as the absolute necessity of having rails boost ONLY movement, and not any sort of production. Also, do away with infinite movement. Doing away with infinite movement could very well adderss the problems of rails without having to implement a rail use cap.

There has to be some stop to the infinite movement issue. I have read several good ideas on how to deal with that (two right here in this thread). An upkeep cost puts the proper burden on the player (and AI) to decide if railroad is really needed.

I do like the connection between railroad in a tile and improved production...I guess because it makes sense. In the real world, that's how most stuff is moved around. However, the playability factor is more important in this case, so I could leave it behind.

If the railroad production bonus is dropped, then we could pull back a good idea from Civ2 regarding irrigation and farms as an upgrade improvement. The railroads would be implied by this upgrade. Mines could also have an upgrade path to "strip mining" or some other term implying moderning mining methods. Once again, railroads implied, but not visible on the map and not built to enhance production.

I can't remember where I just read this (what thread in Civ Games General/Future) but someone proposed that railroad bonus for military units could be infinite only between cities in your own borders. Units need to get off the trains IN CITIES, and then engage the enemy. Seems like a good idea and it employs common sense.

	20-12-2003 09:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Stacked Movement/Combat Scripting I leave Public Works out because otherwise Civ4 might be nearly as good as CtP2.5.

Scripting?

	20-12-2003 19:02									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: But of course, that designation would come as a large cost to your civilization unless of course your civ traits were Mercantilistic, correct?

Well, I'd not go so far as saying that it should be really expensive, but if it was the player who decided where to place it, then it should have a large maintainance cost.

And I don't like the idea of crushingly bland civ traits like mercantilistic, or scientific.

	20-12-2003 20:01									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Scripting?

CTP has included scripting from the get go.

Civ2 had a very basic scripting language that has been put to great effect in various scenarios.

CTP1 extended this by including a moderately useful scripting language called "SLIC"

CTP2 extended the (now C-like) functionality of this language significantly and now most of the game world (even diplomacy) can be altered in some way or another, allowing for, not only scenarios, but even significant additions to the game itself... like, say, adding city sprawl expansion, natural disasters and disease... or most anything you can think of.

Firaxis, though, in its infinite wisdom, has dained scripting too "something bad" for the masses, and gone the route of gui editor alone, instead.

CTP, like Civ2, went the GUI editor AND scripting route.

	20-12-2003 21:50									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Scripting is good!

	20-12-2003 21:57									#19
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I WANT SCRIPTING

	21-12-2003 01:00									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Scripting!

And I second a trade system based on in-game supply and demand, rather than a static value set in the editor.

	21-12-2003 12:33									#21
	Re: Things to Borrow From Other Games Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Seeker 1. Imperialism 1's simultaneous trading market system. A real market system where supply and demand rule, unlike the Civ system.

Against. The reason being Civ is a much higher level game than I1. That means more abstraction and integration, not more micromanagment and details to be dealt with. I realise that some people like micromanagement so if these things can be left as options to turn on.

That means making trading more detailed is really a no-no.

quote: Originally posted by Seeker The semi-mystical 'Stability' number. affected and affecting so many things, might be interesting in Civ (under whatever name), but would be better if it was a value out of 100, and not only 7 possibilities like in EU2.

Against. There is already the happiness rating among other things.

quote: Originally posted by Seeker 3. Combat AI that follows set strategies or 'personalities' like in the old SSG game Warlords 2

For.

quote: Originally posted by Seeker 4. Rail capacity like in any number of games. Improvements and tech (Steam, Electric, Monorail, Magnetic) increase this capacity.

For

	21-12-2003 12:37									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Fosse Suggestions have included an upkeep cost for rail tiles, as well as the absolute necessity of having rails boost ONLY movement, and not any sort of production. Also, do away with infinite movement.

1. You need maintence costs for all roads when it comes down to the line.

2. Railroads represent a quantum leap in both speed and capacity, which means a much more efficient method to collect resources and distribute goods. This cuts down on wastage and spoilae.

quote: Originally posted by Fosse Doing away with infinite movement could very well adderss the problems of rails without having to implement a rail use cap.

You should realise how important are railroads to a country's military operations.

	22-12-2003 04:00									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Economic rail bonuses is realistic, but having a tile benefit that gives you both guns and butter will assure that rails would be built on every tile.

As long as you did ALL of the following...

1. Make the economic benefit VERY small in comparison to contemporary tile improvements (and also include advanced levels of mines, irrigation) - but IMO, rails should be limited to movement
2. Make the labor cost of building rails very high (timewise or shield cost)
3. eliminate infinite rail movement

you may finally get it right.

Eliminating infinite rail movement would not downplay its importance to military operations, but it would merely force you to plan ahead for situations. After all, even if it gives you a 4x movement bonus, that is a powerful weapon

	22-12-2003 09:16									#24
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Actually, eliminating infinite rail movement would do nothing for the propensity of railroads - you need them to have a productive industrial era empire.

	23-12-2003 05:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, eliminating infinite rail movement would do nothing for the propensity of railroads - you need them to have a productive industrial era empire.

Unless you utilize the equivalent of the irrigation to farmlands tile improvement for mines. I would be for this if it eliminated railroad sprawl.

i want to keep my civ landscape beautiful!

	23-12-2003 05:39									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

From CTP2 I want videos when you build a wonder.

And from the same game, that I can control my airplanes.

	23-12-2003 05:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, eliminating infinite rail movement would do nothing for the propensity of railroads - you need them to have a productive industrial era empire.

Not if you remove the railroad production bonus. That is the reason we build them in every tile, and infinite movement is the bonus side effect.

I support removing the production enhancement and also adding an upkeep cost.

	23-12-2003 06:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Unless you utilize the equivalent of the irrigation to farmlands tile improvement for mines. I would be for this if it eliminated railroad sprawl. i want to keep my civ landscape beautiful!

Which is why I didn't say anything about those - I just mentioned infinite movement bonus. That, in itself, wouldn't change anything

	23-12-2003 06:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Fosse Not if you remove the railroad production bonus. That is the reason we build them in every tile, and infinite movement is the bonus side effect. I support removing the production enhancement and also adding an upkeep cost.

see post above - I meant eliminating that alone

	23-12-2003 08:02									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Which is why I didn't say anything about those - I just mentioned infinite movement bonus. That, in itself, wouldn't change anything

No, you don't understand...I DO want a change.

Eliminate infinite movement, bring back the "farmland" from Civ 2 and "strip mining" (i made that up) as upgrades to irrigation and mines.

That way railroads don't need to built everywhere and the railroads that are built, don't allow infinite movement.