15-12-2003 08:32									#1
	Well, maybe Iraq had Al-Qaeda ties after all. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Wow.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...xportaltop.html

quote: Terrorist behind September 11 strike was trained by Saddam By Con Coughlin (Filed: 14/12/2003) Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist. Details of Atta's visit to the Iraqi capital in the summer of 2001, just weeks before he launched the most devastating terrorist attack in US history, are contained in a top secret memo written to Saddam Hussein, the then Iraqi president, by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph, is dated July 1, 2001 and provides a short resume of a three-day "work programme" Atta had undertaken at Abu Nidal's base in Baghdad. In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy". The second part of the memo, which is headed "Niger Shipment", contains a report about an unspecified shipment - believed to be uranium - that it says has been transported to Iraq via Libya and Syria. Although Iraqi officials refused to disclose how and where they had obtained the document, Dr Ayad Allawi, a member of Iraq's ruling seven-man Presidential Committee, said the document was genuine. "We are uncovering evidence all the time of Saddam's involvement with al-Qaeda," he said. "But this is the most compelling piece of evidence that we have found so far. It shows that not only did Saddam have contacts with al-Qaeda, he had contact with those responsible for the September 11 attacks." Although Atta is believed to have been resident in Florida in the summer of 2001, he is known to have used more than a dozen aliases, and intelligence experts believe he could easily have slipped out of the US to visit Iraq. Abu Nidal, who was responsible for the failed assassination of the Israeli ambassador to London in 1982, was based in Baghdad for more than two decades.

	15-12-2003 08:36									#2
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I'd come to the conclusion that the claims of ties were false.... I'll have to rethink that.

	15-12-2003 08:54									#3
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Ah cmon, that can't be real. I'd like it to be real but no way that's bonafide

	15-12-2003 08:59									#4
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quote: The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph

Ha, ha, ha.

	15-12-2003 09:10									#5
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Tuomerehu, what happened on 4/26? Every time I see your sig I get curious.

Sorry for threadjacking.

	15-12-2003 09:13									#6
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Has been asked before.
http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&i...of+April%22&lr=
Browse the first 10 entries, then try to figure it out yourself.

EDIT: And I'm sorry for the threadjack, too. Carry on with the on-topic OT discussion.

	15-12-2003 09:40									#7
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It's not the first time the Telegraph had exclusive documents linking Iraq with whatever evil they find (France, Russia or Al Qaeda).

I remeber that thread, right after the fall of Baghdad, where they pretended to have recovered a top-secret document showing the active collaboration of France with Iraq against the US. I (less distinctively) remeber there were other threads about some other 'breathtaking news' by the Torygraph.

Either censorship works very, very well; either nobody at all in the world is interested in such proof; or the Telegraph makes up its exclusive documents.

Until a legitimate news source (even CNN or the Washington Post will do) reports on it, I'll believe it's a fraud like last time.

	15-12-2003 09:47									#8
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Don;t they have yellow journalism laws over in England?

	15-12-2003 10:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Don;t they have yellow journalism laws over in England?

I don't know. But the only time I ever read the Sun online, I was amazed by the utter lack of professionalism. Besically, they depicted a politician they didn't like (the leader of the Lib Dems IIRC), and they explained without any substance that should he come to power, crime would rise dramatically, Britain would be a pawn of Brussels, the British family would be destroyed, kids would consume drugs all day and whatnot.

What's worse: I do not exagerate anything here. The Sun writes unsubstantiated attacks that strongly.

If there are laws about journalism quality in Britain, I wonder how come the Sun hasn't closed down already.

	15-12-2003 10:06									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Don;t they have yellow journalism laws over in England?

Yep, if it's not yellow you can really get into some trouble.

	15-12-2003 10:15									#11
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If its rubbish, don't read it.

	15-12-2003 10:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Has been asked before. http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&i...of+April%22&lr= Browse the first 10 entries, then try to figure it out yourself.

If it HAS been asked before wouldn't a link to the relevant thread be more appropriate? (and easier)

	15-12-2003 10:43									#13
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@ Spiffor. I too remember the earlier "proofs."

	15-12-2003 11:04									#14
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Well they have Saddam now. Maybe he will talk, although I doubt it.

The NY Times again yesterday reported the controversy concerning Atta's June 2001 visit to Praque. Buried deep in its story was a reference to Atta's 2000 visit to Praque which even the Times admits is confirmed. I have no idea why the Times places such emphasis on the lack of confirmation of the one trip when the earlier trip and contacts with Iraqi intelligence has been confirm.

The real question is whether Atta was working on the plot in 2000 when Atta contacted Iraqi intelligence.

	15-12-2003 11:05									#15
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There are also various confirmed reports of bin Laden contacting US intelligence...

	15-12-2003 11:47									#16
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If this is a forgery, it's an extremely bad time to do one. It'd be best to have a bombshelll like this come out after the primaries and the Dems nominated an anti-war candidate. Doing it now gives the Dems time to elect a moderate.

Also, were you to forge something, you should use a printer or a typewriter. Handwriting can be analyzed by professionals which I am sure this will be. It should be easy to do testing to determine if this is genuine.


I think Matthews mentioned something like this. The Telegraph is a respected newspaper, and so it's probably at least true the governing council found this. This could be the real deal.

	15-12-2003 15:51									#17
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Can you say "forgery"?

Imagine a socialist secular Arab leader helping out a man who works for an organisation that has dedicated itself to removing socialist secular Arab leaders.

The Telegraph is not a respected newspaper, it's an unofficial Tory pamphlet.

	15-12-2003 15:56									#18
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Have they compared the writing style with Tony Blair's yet?

	15-12-2003 18:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Have they compared the writing style with Tony Blair's yet?

	15-12-2003 18:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It's not the first time the Telegraph had exclusive documents linking Iraq with whatever evil they find (France, Russia or Al Qaeda). I remeber that thread, right after the fall of Baghdad, where they pretended to have recovered a top-secret document showing the active collaboration of France with Iraq against the US. I (less distinctively) remeber there were other threads about some other 'breathtaking news' by the Torygraph. Either censorship works very, very well; either nobody at all in the world is interested in such proof; or the Telegraph makes up its exclusive documents. Until a legitimate news source (even CNN or the Washington Post will do) reports on it, I'll believe it's a fraud like last time.

If that's the case, I don't have to rethink it thanks

	15-12-2003 21:43									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Can you say "forgery"? Imagine a socialist secular Arab leader helping out a man who works for an organisation that has dedicated itself to removing socialist secular Arab leaders. The Telegraph is not a respected newspaper, it's an unofficial Tory pamphlet.

Imagine a fascist German leader helping a state that is dedicated to the overthrow of fascist leaders.

Imagine a bitterly anti-communist bourgeois British leader helping out a communist state dedicated to the overthrow of bourgeois leaders.


Or, to get back to al qaeeda

Imagine a conservative Arab monarchy helping out a man dedicated to removing that particular Arab monarchy.


Politics make strange bedfellows.

Which doesnt ELIMINATE the possibility that this particular document is a fraud. Its too soon to say.

	15-12-2003 21:53									#22
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Like I said, if Bush were going to produce fraudulent evidence of an Al Qaeda connection, the best time would be AFTER the Democrats nominate someone anti-war, so that they could campaign against an anti-war candidate after the war has been proven needed. If this evidence start to get shown in the American public anytime soon, the Democrats would have time to react by nominating a pro-war candidate.

Also, I though the telegraph, while certainly having an opinion, it is more like the rightist version of The Guardian and is still considered respected?

	15-12-2003 21:56									#23
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Shi:
I think the forgery is done by the Telegraph rather than by Bush. If Bush wanted to forge documents, he'd spread the forgeries to all conservative susal suspects, starting with Faux News.

I wonder how that day's Telegraph's front page looked like. I'd wager there was a huge title dedicated to their exclusive document

	15-12-2003 22:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Like I said, if Bush were going to produce fraudulent evidence of an Al Qaeda connection, the best time would be AFTER the Democrats nominate someone anti-war, so that they could campaign against an anti-war candidate after the war has been proven needed. If this evidence start to get shown in the American public anytime soon, the Democrats would have time to react by nominating a pro-war candidate. Also, I though the telegraph, while certainly having an opinion, it is more like the rightist version of The Guardian and is still considered respected?

well there are folks around here who think the Guardian is a rightist rag.

	15-12-2003 22:06									#25
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"Dr Ayad Allawi, a member of Iraq's ruling seven-man Presidential Committee, said the document was genuine."

Allawi is a member of the IGC, leader of the Iraqi National Accord (a rival of the Iraqi National Congress) and a longtime pal of the CIA.

Genuine or forged, this is bigger than the Telegraph, unless they got the Allawi quote wrong.

	15-12-2003 22:11									#26
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It must be nice to take all evidence that doesn't fit into your personal opinion and proclaim it must be fraudulant.

Maybe we could take a more enlightened position and see if it gets verified? Just an idea.

-Pat

	15-12-2003 22:22									#27
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If it were real, they'd have given it to someone besides the Telegraph.

	15-12-2003 22:50									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If it were real, they'd have given it to someone besides the Telegraph.

More likely, Che, no other media outlook would publish it.

	15-12-2003 22:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos It must be nice to take all evidence that doesn't fit into your personal opinion and proclaim it must be fraudulant.

Given the Telegraph's history of having "exclusive" documents nobody else in the world bothered to comment upon, I think distrust is the most prudent approach.

If the story is reported by any serious news source (as I said, I consider even CNN and the Washington Post to be serious news sources), this document would be an incredible proof that one element of Bush's PRopaganda wasn't an utter lie.

Until then, excuse me while I give it as much importance as the Guardian's shocking revelation of Blair's eating little babies

	15-12-2003 22:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ned More likely, Che, no other media outlook would publish it.

Surely, Faux News would haven't even mentioned it. No way this raving leftist network induces Bush was right

Also, you can expect any serious source to report on such document, even if they don't make a huge cover on it.