15-12-2003 18:22									#1
	How far can the EU expand? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well it's not a 100% settled yet, but 10 new countries will join next year. Bulgaria and Romania are more or less promised membership in a couple of years too. Turkey has candidate status but hasn't been promised anything.

So when/where will the cancer that is the EU stop spreading??

Last edited by Gangerolf on 15-12-2003 at 18:32

	15-12-2003 18:38									#2
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Voted for all except the African countries and Israel, but I forgot to include Bananaland

	15-12-2003 18:44									#3
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Do you exclude the Africans based on geography? I don't think the economy of the North African countries is any worse than the Caucasus countries' for instance.
Israel, while having a decent economy, has some other "issues" to deal with..

	15-12-2003 18:46									#4
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If you mean how far will/can it go, I agree with Combat. However I'd like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland to join and then stop. Having many poorer nations join simply means we'll end up giving money to them.

Having said that, I'm all for the free trade area to be expanded as far as possible. Just not the political aspect of it.

	15-12-2003 18:48									#5
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Where is "the whole world except Turkey" option?

	15-12-2003 18:50									#6
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if turkey is invited, even though they are in asia and not europe, we should allow china, japan, and korea to join the eu.

	15-12-2003 18:54									#7
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@Spiffor

Gangerolf, I would exclude the African states not just for geography, but because they have serious social issues. That combined with relatively large, poor, and quickly growing populations is not a good thing in my book. If they solve these issues and become stabile democracies, I don't have any problem with them joining EU.

But as I said in the other thread, Norway and Russia (with their issues solved) are those I would like the most to join EU.

	15-12-2003 19:09									#8
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What's Norway's issues? It's adopted tons of EU legislation due to the EEA treaty, and probably enforces it more rigid than most EU members. The only issues I can think of is that none of the political parties have the guts to revive the EU debate.

	15-12-2003 19:12									#9
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I meant Russia's issues. Norway is doing fine

	15-12-2003 19:24									#10
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i'd exclude most of them, seeing as the treaties say that only democracies which respect human rights are allowed in...

	15-12-2003 19:26									#11
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Oh. Yes, Russia has some issues. First of all, it's big as hell. And then there's Chechniya (spelling?).

BTW, don't the former Soviets (except the Baltics) have a union thing of their own going on? The CIS? I must admit I don't know much about it or in what way it compares to the EU.

	15-12-2003 19:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf BTW, don't the former Soviets (except the Baltics) have a union thing of their own going on? The CIS? I must admit I don't know much about it or in what way it compares to the EU.

I don't know much about CIS either. My impressions are:
1. It's mainly a free trade association
2. In case of a political union, the CIS members would generally prefer to work with EU rather than Russia

	15-12-2003 20:09									#13
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The whole world except Norway.

	15-12-2003 20:10									#14
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I think after this weekends debacle it's goona be quite a while before any new members are approved.

	15-12-2003 21:08									#15
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One of the EU supporters' pet arguments is that the EU guarantees everlasting peace and yadayada. If they really believe that they should let the former Yugoslavs in ASAP. But that would require Bosniaks and Serbs to be in a union again, I don't know if they want that.

	15-12-2003 21:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf But that would require Bosniaks and Serbs to be in a union again, I don't know if they want that.

They'd fight in Brussels instead of borderlands. Would make Brussels more lively

	15-12-2003 21:55									#17
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Hey, Why not us?

	15-12-2003 21:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hey, Why not us?

You're not on the European continent.
Try again when the continents will have drifted enough

	15-12-2003 22:03									#19
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Yeah, and Cyprus is on the european continent.

Hell, even Britain isn't on the European continent... ok, that one actually makes sense, since they aren't really in the EU, either.

	15-12-2003 22:06									#20
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Cyprus is on the european continet, it's just a bit to the right

	16-12-2003 00:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hey, Why not us?

Because you're an ally of the USA.

I voted the same as Combat Ingrid: all except the African countries and Israel.

	16-12-2003 00:39									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You're not on the European continent. Try again when the continents will have drifted enough

That's a lame reason. Israel isn't far away. What really matters are cultural and economic factors IMO. So Israel is a good candidate. They probably should settle their differences with the Pals first though.

Then there's the question of whether Israel wants to hand over sovereignty to Europe, which mildly put hasn't always been nice to its Jews.

	16-12-2003 00:39									#24
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What about "should" it grow? It's too big for it's own good already, and will fall apart if more countries are added, or will become inefficient and unwarrented soon enough...

	16-12-2003 00:41									#25
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Because you're Jews so go home.

Only Siwtzerland, Norway and Iceland. They're all Germanic.

	16-12-2003 00:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf That's a lame reason. Israel isn't far away. What really matters are cultural and economic factors IMO. So Israel is a good candidate. They probably should settle their differences with the Pals first though. Then there's the question of whether Israel wants to hand over sovereignty to Europe, which mildly put hasn't always been nice to its Jews.

Amazingly enough, I think the majority will favor it. We'll be entering as a state, as equals, and not as some persecuted minority.

Oh, and if your governments are so sure they know all the right answers with the muslim world, as they claim ( and that's obviously not true ) why don't they try it themselves?

quote: Because you're an ally of the USA.

So is Britain, Spain, Italy...

	16-12-2003 00:48									#27
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...Germany, technically, ...

	16-12-2003 00:59									#28
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I don't see why the EU should be restricted to countries on the European continent. The United States of America accepted Hawaii and it isn't even close to either of the Americas.

	16-12-2003 01:10									#29
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The poll is badly designed, in that it asks two vague questions in one.

In the near-term, I voted for:

Bulgaria
Romania
Croatia
Bosnia
Serbia-Montenegro
Macedonia
Albania
Turkey

The radioactive twins of Ukraine and Belarus, with their attached foetus Moldova, will take a long time to get going, and they might decide to rejoin Russia instead.

Russia is really, really different from the rest of Europe; large population, colossal landmass. The way the EU operates would have to be reworked quite a bit. Plus, Russia may not want to join.

The Caucasian countries are too wartorn for the moment.

The African countries are too undemocratic and unstable, although Morocco may eventually become a contender.

Israel is unlikely to let up in the anti-semitic Europe scaremongering, or stop persecuting the Palestinians, so I doubt they'll ever join.

	16-12-2003 01:10									#30
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When I think about it, 10 years from now, there probably wont be any new members except "the 10" + Bulgaria and Romania. Turkey - maybe. Norway and Iceland - maybe but probably not. It all depends on what happens the next couple of years though.