27-06-2004 22:28									#31
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The overview has been editied! Please continue to add your cheat-related thoughts.
A question: how many of you use the cheat mode to get ahead in the game?

	27-06-2004 23:52									#32
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Never ever

I take my lumps. How else can one improve.

	29-06-2004 06:14									#33
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No cheats please in MP or PBEMs.

However in SP mode I would very much there be a "cheat menu" like in Civ2 for editing since the Civ3 editor system was utter crap.

	29-06-2004 06:53									#34
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Well, if cheating is labeled or detectable somehow, then it wouldn't matter if it is allowed in MP or PBEMs because if someone cheats, you'd know.

Furthermore, one of the nice things about Civ2's cheating is that if you did cheat one or more times, it really didn't ruin the experience of future games. Heck, I cheated the hell out of my first couple games but stopped (largely because it wasn't fun) and ended up having a very fun many years of play. Do that with other games, and they are ruined.

	29-06-2004 08:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Well, if cheating is labeled or detectable somehow, then it wouldn't matter if it is allowed in MP or PBEMs because if someone cheats, you'd know. Furthermore, one of the nice things about Civ2's cheating is that if you did cheat one or more times, it really didn't ruin the experience of future games. Heck, I cheated the hell out of my first couple games but stopped (largely because it wasn't fun) and ended up having a very fun many years of play. Do that with other games, and they are ruined.

The problem is that you could always reload from a past save so there would be no evidence of cheating.

That is why I disapprove of having a cheat menu in MP or PBEM play. With SP each person should decide what to do with their games and if they want to cheat, or use the cheat menu for other ends so be it (I for example, used the Civ2 cheat menu to check out F11 stats from various periods in time after the game was over, or to do things like gift cities to allies which was not allowed by the game mechanics).

	29-06-2004 08:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The problem is that you could always reload from a past save so there would be no evidence of cheating. That is why I disapprove of having a cheat menu in MP or PBEM play. With SP each person should decide what to do with their games and if they want to cheat, or use the cheat menu for other ends so be it (I for example, used the Civ2 cheat menu to check out F11 stats from various periods in time after the game was over, or to do things like gift cities to allies which was not allowed by the game mechanics).

Then just make it possible to deactivate certain features. You don't need to take out the whole freaking thing.

	29-06-2004 08:21									#37
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NO type of cheating should ever be permitted in MP or PBEM play, period. Please tell me what possible "cheat" features you'd like included in multiplayer?

	29-06-2004 08:32									#38
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Cheat features in single player - yes

Cheat features in multi player - NO NO NO

	29-06-2004 08:33									#39
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Cheats in Civs are useful for the same reason handicaps are useful in golf. Say some guy isn't good at building up quickly but you still want a competitive game. Give him two cities at the start, or an extra settler type unit. Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position. Sometimes you like to make it so that they have to overcome that, but sometimes you want real competition.

	29-06-2004 08:37									#40
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A cheat menu (as in Civ2) should be included in SP mode, IMO. It can certainly be useful in helping newer players stay competitive while learning the game and for scenario editing purposes.

No cheat menu in MP, of course.

	29-06-2004 08:43									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Cheats in Civs are useful for the same reason handicaps are useful in golf. Say some guy isn't good at building up quickly but you still want a competitive game. Give him two cities at the start, or an extra settler type unit. Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position. Sometimes you like to make it so that they have to overcome that, but sometimes you want real competition.

This is equally accomplished by editing the SCENARIO, doing it via a neutral person who is not in the game. This should not be able to be done in an already ongoing game which is why there should not be a cheat menu period in MP. You want to customize your game? Edit the scenario, not the save.

Many of the PBEMs started are made by 3rd persons who set up the game to be evened out among people. Moreso, I doubt there are enough example of people requiring "handicaps" to justify having a potentially game-ruining feature which can be exploited by people.

	29-06-2004 08:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen This is equally accomplished by editing the SCENARIO, doing it via a neutral person who is not in the game. This should not be able to be done in an already ongoing game which is why there should not be a cheat menu period in MP. You want to customize your game? Edit the scenario, not the save. Many of the PBEMs started are made by 3rd persons who set up the game to be evened out among people. Moreso, I doubt there are enough example of people requiring "handicaps" to justify having a potentially game-ruining feature which can be exploited by people.

No, it's not equally accomplished since you have to edit the scenario before the start of the game. If you play with people you trust, then you can have the cheat option avalible. If you don't, deactivate it. You don't need to screw anyone else over.

And Jonny, Titans suck

	29-06-2004 09:33									#43
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Give me ONE compelling reason why would feel required in using a cheat menu to edit an already begun started MP game, something that couldn't be done with editing a scenario from the start.

	29-06-2004 09:35									#44
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Why don't you read my previous post?

	29-06-2004 09:54									#45
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I did and you are still not answering my question: Give me one good reason why a cheat in MP should be included when all the game-balancing issues that you mention are and SHOULD be done instead from the start when editing a scenario? Again, give me ONE good reason why you would feel compelled to cheat to edit a MP game mid-way?

	29-06-2004 10:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I did and you are still not answering my question: Give me one good reason why a cheat in MP should be included when all the game-balancing issues that you mention are and SHOULD be done instead from the start when editing a scenario? Again, give me ONE good reason why you would feel compelled to cheat to edit a MP game mid-way?

quote: Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position.

	09-08-2004 21:41									#47
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Bump-bump!
The deadline is approaching so I've updated the list. I'll create a poll later to finalize the opinions.

	09-08-2004 22:26									#48
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The MP map generator is designed to create fair starting positions.

	10-08-2004 01:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The MP map generator is designed to create fair starting positions.

You know there is no guarantee.

	10-08-2004 07:18									#50
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If it's that bad, restart.

	10-08-2004 20:25									#51
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Thanks for the summary Matt

	10-08-2004 20:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Thanks for the summary Matt

I'll have it in the accepted format by the deadline.

	13-08-2004 17:06									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sore Loser I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I'd like to see an Ironman mode as in SMAC where you're not "allowed" to reload. [...] The same line of thought can be applied to the discussion about the cheat menu. I'd like the option to turn the cheat menu off when setting up a game, so I won't feel the temptation to sneek peek at the locations so I can see where to found my cities. This should please everyone and is extremely easy to implement.

This is a very good idea. Much more effective then the super-mega-deity-emperor-of-gods difficulty level. The "reload" spell is way too powerful. It would be a great idea to have a checkbox that turned the reload option off and would make the game a lot more challenging to lot of people (yes, me included. I recognize it).

	13-08-2004 19:17									#54
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That's a good idea... I can't believe I forgot to add that .

	13-08-2004 20:35									#55
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probably because of the controversy...

	13-08-2004 20:44									#56
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Should we also include a list of all the cheat commands that we'd like?

	13-08-2004 20:50									#57
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well, I'll admit, your summary is a bit sparse- but just a general overview of what type of cheating is necessary could be sufficient- such as new commands...

You could mention (all the cheats from Civ II and III) plus these new ones.

please list the new ideas... but you don't have to list every specific Civ II and III one if you don't want to.

-DC

	13-08-2004 21:42									#58
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA This is a very good idea. Much more effective then the super-mega-deity-emperor-of-gods difficulty level. The "reload" spell is way too powerful. It would be a great idea to have a checkbox that turned the reload option off and would make the game a lot more challenging to lot of people (yes, me included. I recognize it).

So like the ironman option in SMAC....

	13-08-2004 21:56									#59
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List of Proposed Cheats:
- Enable / Disable
- Switch between game / cheat mode (see Appearance of the Cheat Menu below)
- Open / Close / Save scen.
- Place:
--- Start loc.
--- Terrain
--- City
--- Unit
--- Improvement
--- Goody Hut
--- Barbarian camp
--- Resource / etc.
--- Location based trigger
- Edit:
--- Start gold
--- Current gold
--- Start year
--- Current year
--- Attitude
--- Status of relation (war, fixed alliances, etc.)
--- Current trades
--- Triggers / Scripts
--- Object positions (units, cities, overlays, etc.)

Appearance of the Cheat Menu:
Since the majority of contributors suggest that cheats be used primarily for scenario editing, I propose that what was the "cheat menu" in previous games become an in-game editor with a layout similar to the editor in Age of Empires or RON: the menu structure is transformed into in palette containing drag-and-drop units, terrain, etc. This or its appropriate translation (to make it fit into whatever cIV user interface) would be far superior than drop down menus or consoles featured in prevous Civ/other games.

Please add your own suggestions and cheats!

Last edited by MattH on 13-08-2004 at 22:22

	13-08-2004 22:09									#60
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quote: - Place: --- Start loc. --- Terrain --- City --- Improvement --- Goody Hut --- Barbarian camp --- Resource / etc. --- Location based trigger

Aren't we forgetting Unit?