16-12-2003 04:04									#1
	{The List-} Cheats Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Introduction
When I was young(er) I loved the CIV II cheat menu- got a pesky civ? Drop some tanks and stealth bombers on them. Need more movement? Add it in. Out of cash? Not anymore!

Cheats were totally taken out of vanilla CIV III. Should they make a comeback in cIV? How should they manifest? Discuss amongst yourselves.



To Cheat or not to Cheat?
Consensus: Cheats are needed as scenario editing tools.
Disputed: Cheats are needed to balance multiplayer games.


The Function of Cheats:
Perspective 1: Strict View
Brent and others suggest that cheating should be implemented in the CIV II style, full cheats but no hall-of-fame. "It doesn't hurt anyone".

Perspective 2: Limited Scope
Perspective 2 . 1
No cheats whatsoever! They are a temptation and only serve to ruin the game.
Perspective 2 . 2
Alva:No cheats, but include debug mode.

Perspective 3: All-Encompasing
Add functionality- Reveal and hide fog of war, make permant build changes to the AI, change unit paths, mess with the AI's understanding of the current map. Tassadar says transform cheat mode into a full-blown, in-game scenario editor.

Perspective 4: Multiplayer
Perspective 4 . 1
There is no reason to include MP cheats.
Perspective 4 . 1
A successful implementation would allow players to compensate for poor starting locations, a lack of reasources, and other disadvantages.


Requests:
Kucinich Fix CIV II style cheat bugs.
Sore Loser et. all: Add an Ironman mode similar to the one in SMAC where you're not "allowed" to reload.



Majority Opinion:

• Cheats are a core part of the scenario editing process.
  
• Do not use "approved saves" (only allowed x turns) or similar save game restrictions to prevent reloading or to allow hall-of-fame points.
  

Last edited by MattH on 09-08-2004 at 21:39

	16-12-2003 05:30									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

C2 style cheating. It hurts no one, and is useful for scenarios.

	16-12-2003 10:15									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Definitely a vote for Civ II style cheating. It is much easier to create scenarios through playing the game like in Civ II than it is in Civ III.

	17-12-2003 17:09									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Great editor : .

Debug-mode : (here some cheats could be usefull I guess (for testing purposes.

cheat-mode : learn the game.

	17-12-2003 17:20									#5
	Tired of ads?

The cheat mode isn't obligatory, but it's nice to have when you either want to make a scenario(as mentioned), or if you just want to test out the game. I remember from Civ2, that when I had won the game, it was quite fun to make LOTS of cheats to the game and see what happened!

	17-12-2003 18:45									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not sure if this should go in here, but I think there should finally be an official mode where you can just do nothing yourself and watch the computer civilizations battle each other. It's great fun! Okay, it's not great fun, but it could be useful for scenario designers.

	17-12-2003 19:24									#7
	Remove this text

Allready in Civ3.
People should give this game a little more credit instead of shouting/whining Civ2 was so much better.
Granted that much has happened since the original release.

Stefu, what you describe is Debug mode and can be accessed from the editor.

	17-12-2003 19:45									#8
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I'd like to see an Ironman mode as in SMAC where you're not "allowed" to reload. I follow the temtation argument some of the way, and it's much easier to refrain from reloading when you have to go through bothersome procedures instead of simply doing it. This works for me in NetHack, for example, where I hardly ever reload (I want to experiment with something on occasion and don't always feel like throwing away a high-level character to do so, but rarely), and it increases my gaming experience significantly. You could say that I could then simply refrain from reloading, but that's now how the human psyche works.

The same line of thought can be applied to the discussion about the cheat menu. I'd like the option to turn the cheat menu off when setting up a game, so I won't feel the temptation to sneek peek at the locations so I can see where to found my cities. This should please everyone and is extremely easy to implement.

	18-12-2003 01:23									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Tass: I just added 2.1 to piss people off and get all the options up there . The idea of merging the editor and game has been in my head a long time- and it would make play testing (and corrections) much easier. I'd also like a new addition to the menu: undo. Stepping back a move or a turn could be very helpful.

I'd like to see a CIV II style cheat menu, but an option to disable it in the .ini file would be good.

(I'll add everyone's ideas when I have 30 more seconds.)

	28-12-2003 07:15									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MattH, could we have a poll on this, then you could tabulate the results and post them above to show the relative popularity of the ideas

	28-12-2003 21:24									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't value the civ2-cheat mode as a way to cheat but as a way of making scens.

So I'm for a way of making scens easily in the good old civ2 style. I don't mind about cheating or not - because I don't use this feature.

	28-12-2003 22:46									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sore Loser I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I'd like to see an Ironman mode as in SMAC where you're not "allowed" to reload. I follow the temtation argument some of the way, and it's much easier to refrain from reloading when you have to go through bothersome procedures instead of simply doing it. This works for me in NetHack, for example, where I hardly ever reload (I want to experiment with something on occasion and don't always feel like throwing away a high-level character to do so, but rarely), and it increases my gaming experience significantly. You could say that I could then simply refrain from reloading, but that's now how the human psyche works. The same line of thought can be applied to the discussion about the cheat menu. I'd like the option to turn the cheat menu off when setting up a game, so I won't feel the temptation to sneek peek at the locations so I can see where to found my cities. This should please everyone and is extremely easy to implement.

Only if it doesn't give a score bonus.

	28-12-2003 23:33									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Why would you be against an Ironman score bonus, skywalker? I'd say 10% would be a fair bonus

	29-12-2003 00:19									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Except it would be worthless. Anyone who is going for score can still reload, just with slightly more hassle.

	29-12-2003 00:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Oh, and if we do have cheats, though, I'd like it not to be buggy. I found that whenever I saved a game and then opened the save, the cheats would be ON (the menu wasn't grayed out, but I wouldn't be flagged as having cheated

	29-12-2003 02:14									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I liked the way they did it in Civ 2 MGE. Have both a cheat mode, and an editor to make scenarios, though add just about everything you can change to it. That would be good, one for cheating, one for making scenarios.

	29-12-2003 04:29									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Except it would be worthless. Anyone who is going for score can still reload, just with slightly more hassle

But if you were someone who played civ only for the ironman mode and it stated "ironman" on your victory toolbar and added the bonus, then it would all be worth it... and if you were the best player ever- then you could theoretically score 10% higher than the best reloader ever

quote: Oh, and if we do have cheats, though, I'd like it not to be buggy. I found that whenever I saved a game and then opened the save, the cheats would be ON (the menu wasn't grayed out, but I wouldn't be flagged as having cheated

Because you did cheat- you weren't ironman

	29-12-2003 09:40									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, this happens even when you save and exit.

	29-12-2003 15:02									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by alva Great editor : . Debug-mode : (here some cheats could be usefull I guess (for testing purposes. cheat-mode : learn the game.

Enuff Said

	30-12-2003 22:36									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: No, this happens even when you save and exit.

I see... but what if it only let you save every say 100 turns and then, when you returned, you could only enter a 100-turn approved gamesave?

	30-12-2003 22:47									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What about crashes? What about when you have an urgent appointmnet? When you're dead tired? Inherently flawed- "Keep playing or else!"

	30-12-2003 23:30									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud I see... but what if it only let you save every say 100 turns and then, when you returned, you could only enter a 100-turn approved gamesave?

That would just be annoying. You should be able to save and exit a game if you need to go somewhere. Just remove the score bonus from Ironman.

	01-01-2004 07:57									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

skywalker- just because YOU find it annoying doesn't mean that EVERYONE would

quote: What about crashes? What about when you have an urgent appointmnet? When you're dead tired? Inherently flawed- "Keep playing or else!"

that's the whole point of ironman- otherwise, as skywalker has noted- it would be pointless

And I think all you fail to realize that many people leave their computers on with games on overnight.

as for crashes- well that's the risk you suffer. if civ isn't buggy then they shouldn't be an issue

	17-05-2004 22:58									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud And I think all you fail to realize that many people leave their computers on with games on overnight.

And many more don't just leave them on overnight, they're gaming.

	18-05-2004 09:16									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

hi ,

actually cheats are no longer needed thanks to the editor , but is it handy if lets say you are building a scen and discover that this and that is not correct , .... civ2 was handy with that , ....

maybe we should have a poll , .....


have a nice day

	21-05-2004 18:32									#26
	Tired of ads?

one great things about having cheats included in the game is the fact, that less or no cheat programs at all get produced.

civ2-style was quite good

	22-05-2004 18:02									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Who gives a flying rat's patootie about scores?
Who is so lame that he runs around bragging "I scored 10,000 points in Civ 3 last night" to his friends?

Scores serve only two possible purposes - to help you assess your own improvement in playing the game or to judge your performance against other players in competitive situations. In the first case, you are your own judge and you know if you cheated. In the second case, you are at the mercy of the integrity of the other players and rely on them not to cheat; if you suspect a player is cheating - don't play with him.

I found the Civ2 cheat mode fun and instructive. (Let's not forget Civ is a GAME and fun is the primary objective.) If I grew bored with a game most of the time I would simply quit, but sometimes I would load up my cities with nukes (or other fun units) and just have some good old destructive fun; or maybe give some nukes to that pathetic civ sitting in the corner, just to see what they'd do with their new-found power. IIRC the score would be flagged as "cheating", but the score was not the point, it was the FUN. As I was learning the game I would somtimes use the cheat mode to explore different strategies without having to start from scratch each time- "let's see what helicopters can do in this situation".
OK, to be honest I didn't use the "instructive" aspect very often, it was usually "let's go have some FUN".

	25-05-2004 10:39									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud skywalker- just because YOU find it annoying doesn't mean that EVERYONE would ......as for crashes- well that's the risk you suffer. if civ isn't buggy then they shouldn't be an issue

And what if it isn't the game that's buggy? What if its a person's electrical grid that is unreliable?

	25-05-2004 23:05									#29
	Put an end to popups!

poll questions


If you cheat do:

Do you cheat to edit

Do you cheat to win

	25-06-2004 21:11									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

personally, I cheat to edit.

Some scenarios, like panag mentioned, however, can be improved with the cheat menu...

It can also be used for quick modifications to terrain rules- if you want to increase the ease or difficulty of a certain game...

say the Zulu have jungle tiles- but you want to give them a +1 bonus to food gathering in the jungle- you either adjust the Civilization Bonuses or the Terrain Tile and give them that... then they have an advantage over you..

and viola! Instant replayability!