28-12-2003 21:26									#31
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I think there should be one 'Special Forces' unit for both anti-terrorism and black ops.

Possible division of DarkCloud's ops between the three units:

Bribe unit: Not sure about this. In theory this could even be done through the game screen, without units - through right-click menu. However, in this case this should cost a buttload, so that just buying the charging army doesn't become a commonplace occurrence. Also, it should be impossible under certain conditions.
Bribe City: Revolutionary Agent, through cells
Assassinate general: Special forces (Maybe spy, too?)
Assassinate ruler: Special forces
Poison water supply: Special forces
Plant WMDs: Special forces (I don't see the need for three different types of WMD, unless the bio-agent has a chance of disease spreading.)
Steal tech: Spy
Establish embassy: Through the dip-screen
Spy on city: Spy
Destroy buildings: All can do this (with spy this costs more, and revolutionary agent does this through cells)
Sabotage production: Production being sabotaged should be one of the consequences of strike, which is invited by the rev. agent (throuh cells). The strike would also have other consequences - production stops and all the resources in the city's area become temporarily unusable.
Incite riot: Rev. agent (through cells)
Incite government change: Rev. agent (if this is possible at all - should require a buttload of money and big revolutionary cells to even catch on)
Decrease productivity: Rev. agent (through cells)
Steal money: Spy
Destroy railroad: Spec. forces
Mine road: Spec. forces (Maybe a military engineer unit for this purpose and a few others, too?)
Call airstrike: Spec. forces
Infiltrate revolutionary cell: Spy (This gives you a view on how big the rev. cell is, perhaps some info about other revolutionary cells in your country, makes it easier to destroy the cell and gives you a chance to sabotage the goings-on of that cell - bwahaha!)
Destroy revolutionary cell: Spec. forces

	28-12-2003 23:48									#32
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Thanks for the acknowledgement Shogun Gunner

However, if we were to make the spy a group of units, then we should shy away from US brand names like Delta Force and Green Beret... I would rather support more generic and universal names such as:

Emissary/Diplomat (geared toward diplomacy- gains bonuses)
*Bribe Unit (BONUS)
*Bribe Town (BONUS)
*Steal Technology
*Establish Embassy (BONUS)
*Spy on City
*Incite Riot

Spy (More geared toward individual covertops)
*Assassinate General (possibly not)
*Assassinate Ruler (possibly not)
*Poison Water Supply (BONUS)
*Plant BioAgent
*Steal Technology (BONUS)
*Spy on City (BONUS)
*Sabotague Production (BONUS)
*Incite Riot (BONUS)
*Incite Change of Government (BONUS)
*Decrease Productivity (BONUS)
*Call Airstrike (BONUS)

Revolutionary/Terrorist/Infiltrator (more geared toward destruction)
*Assassinate General (BONUS)
*Assassinate Ruler (BONUS)
*Call Airstrike
*Mine Road (BONUS)
*Destroy Railraod (BONUS)
*Destroy Buildings (BONUS)
*Spy on City
*Plant BioAgent
*Plant Chemical Agent
*Plant Nuclear Agent
*Poison Water Supply
*Bribe Unit
*Bribe Town

Elite SpecOps (dedicated to destruction and inciting riots)
*Plant Nuclear Device (BONUS)
*Poison Water Supply (BONUS)
*Plant Chemical Agent (BONUS)
*Plant BioAgent (BONUS)
*Assassinate General (BONUS)
*Assassinate Ruler (BONUS)
*Steal Technology
*Destroy Buildings
*Sabotague Production
*Destroy Railroad
*Mine Road
*Call Airstrike (BONUS)

	28-12-2003 23:53									#33
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Well, it seems I should have looked at this second page Stefu seems to already have done what I did without my realizing that he had already done so

I guess I'll comment on his suggestions:

quote: Bribe unit: Not sure about this. In theory this could even be done through the game screen, without units - through right-click menu. However, in this case this should cost a buttload, so that just buying the charging army doesn't become a commonplace occurrence. Also, it should be impossible under certain conditions.

Well, I would like to suggest that units cannot bribe other units because it is nto very often that a unti will trust a random general walking out to parley and bribe him... and generals don't have much diplomatic training- whereas a spy would- therefore, I think that the spy unit should be the only unit dedicated to bribery.

-
And I basically suggest 3 types of WMD to simulate the real world and to have different cost/damage levels for each... a poorer civ could afford Bio whereas only the rich could afford nuclear... and chem would be in the middle- it would have a lower propensity of doing a LOT of damage, but if it did do damage, it could lower a city's population by 75% instead of nuke's 50%... and it would cost either much more or much less than nukes...

If the WMD's had different strengths and weaknesses, then an argument could be made for having different levels of them
-

quote: Infiltrate revolutionary cell: Spy (This gives you a view on how big the rev. cell is, perhaps some info about other revolutionary cells in your country, makes it easier to destroy the cell and gives you a chance to sabotage the goings-on of that cell - bwahaha!) Destroy revolutionary cell: Spec. forces

Good addition to the list!

I would suggest that the Infiltrator and the Spy can Infiltrate the Rev cell... whereas the Elite SpecOps are the only ones capable of destroying one

good work stefu

	29-12-2003 00:08									#34
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I'd like WMD's to differ significantly in effect and execution. Nukes would be missiles, and basically would work how they did in C3 (though maybe a bit better damage). Chemical weapons would be an option for artillery - gas barrage. It essentially does an X-strength bombard with on ROF against every unit in the stack (I have no idea what X should be), and in addition will ALWAYS remove a pop point (or two?) from a city. Bioweapons would be abstracted in the espionage panel, "plant bioweapon in city X", and it would operate just like a plague would (if they're implemented in C4). It would spread to other cities connected in the trade network with it, especially through airports and stuff.

quote: Destroy railroad: Spec. forces

It's called pillage

	29-12-2003 00:17									#35
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Yeah, but "Destroy railroad" could be done during peacetime.

	29-12-2003 00:18									#36
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Just make a privateer-type unit then.

	29-12-2003 02:08									#37
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I'm going to go for a slider-style system, like in Galciv. Some of the ideas being discussed here are far too detailed to be useful. Even in civ2, I only used most of the spy missions once in a blue moon.

One idea I had was to have a city-based rather than civ-based espionage. Instead of allocating a certain amount of money to spy on a civ generally, you can spy on their cities. The cost of spying in a certain city would depend on its proximity, its size, its improvements, the government of the owning civ. etc.

In this way, you culd get large, open cities that were riddled with spies spying on the city and each other, and it would also be possible to build 'closed cities' which would have few links to the outside world.

I'd rather not see phrases like 'assymetric warfare' or 'WMD' used.

	29-12-2003 04:22									#38
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quote: Just make a privateer-type unit then.

That's the whole point of the spy

As for your analysis of WMD, skywalker- you seem to neglect that there is such a thing as a carriable "suitcase nuke" and "tactical nukes" as well as mobile "chemical agents" the units you state would be better suited for the UNITS thread than this discussion on espionague.

	29-12-2003 07:53									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud However, if we were to make the spy a group of units, then we should shy away from US brand names like Delta Force and Green Beret... I would rather support more generic and universal names

I most certainly agree. These units would be employed by any civ, so they should be universal.

	29-12-2003 08:33									#40
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Spies, Special Operations, etc. if they are in the game should be privateer-type units.

Diplomats should only be able to establish embassies, or steal technology. And, if they steal technology, and get caught, one they are killed, two the AI will send units, or spies, or diplomats. to steal tech from you.

	29-12-2003 09:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud That's the whole point of the spy As for your analysis of WMD, skywalker- you seem to neglect that there is such a thing as a carriable "suitcase nuke" and "tactical nukes" as well as mobile "chemical agents" the units you state would be better suited for the UNITS thread than this discussion on espionague.

Then just have a "Plant Nuclear Bomb" option on the espionage screen. Why make a spy unit?

EDIT: actually, I'd prefer that nukes stay as a missile. While yes, you can have a "suitcase nuke", removing that makes a distinction between the different roles of the different WMD's - nukes are for big nations to threaten each other with but not use too much, chemical weapons are used more frequently and with less of a diplomatic penalty, and are used as a part of a conventional war, and bioweapons are for terrorism and assymetrical warfare.

	29-12-2003 09:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Then just have a "Plant Nuclear Bomb" option on the espionage screen. Why make a spy unit?

It doesn't need to be a spy unit. It could also be some of the other potential unit types discussed above.

Having a unit gives the game more context. Part of the fun is getting the weapons, troops, whatever to the battle. Also, if you have to move a unit, it stands a chance of being detected or intercepted by counterspy actions.

It just wouldn't be the same to go to a screen and select "plant nuclear bomb" and switch back to the screen to see a city blown up.

	29-12-2003 10:00									#43
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It doesn't make much sense to march the unit across the battlefield, either, when it's purpose is something like this. For example, wouldn't a spy take a plane? If you travel to a foreign country, you generally fly there (or maybe take a train).

	29-12-2003 10:03									#44
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Look at it this way: I'm Palestine. I want to commit a nuclear attack against the US. You expect me to build a transport, load the guy with the bomb in it, sail it up to DC, unload the guy, and have him plant the nuke? No, he flies to Germany or France or Britain, takes a transatlantic flight to Washington (or more likely New York), takes a connecting flight to Washington, drives to Washington, or takes the train. He then blows himself up, if he isn't caught by security.

	29-12-2003 10:04									#45
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Take a plane with a nuclear bomb checked in luggage?

	29-12-2003 10:21									#46
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The point is, it makes more sense to abstract it, and have a certain % chance the person is caught.

	29-12-2003 18:04									#47
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I would rather have a unit that needs to be coordinated with other friendly units, have a chance of being caught/intercepted, and if caught - the enemy is not sure what the mission of the unit was.

If someone launched this attack against me, especially in MP, I would like to have at least one chance to evaluate the situation, decide on what type of countermeasures, etc. I don't want it left to the computer for a simple calculation of probability.

	29-12-2003 20:44									#48
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So you want to go to the utter unrealism of building a transport to send your spy to the other county? Of having the spy take up an ENTIRE TILE?

	30-12-2003 05:32									#49
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Getting rid of untis doesn't mean leaving everything to the random number generator. GalCiv has both active and passive espionage, so that you are pitting what you are willing to spend on counter-espionage against what the other guy is willing to spend on espionage. That is essentially the same as using units (how much production are you willing to put into "guard spies" vs. how much they will spend on "attack spies."), except it reduces micromanagement and puts you in a position to feel like you are really running a country.

Instead of building dozens of spies and sending them on their ways tile by tile, you invest in intelligence and give directives. Civ 3 spies were awful. Just terrible. The idea to abstract them was good, the implementation was a killer. Civ 4 can have great spies, abstracted, and with enormously better implementation than in Civ 3.

	30-12-2003 07:16									#50
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Interesting point Fosse. Perhaps that is my aversion to abstraction. I liked the spy actions in Civ2 better than Civ3. In Civ3, I never use the spy functions...its too expensive and easier to accomplish military goals via other methods. An the AI is so quick to declare war when you drop a spy in his capital.

Regarding a unit or not, it is nice to have a tangible presence on the battlefield -- especially in enemy territory. As far as a "whole" square, well they need to sit somewhere, but no, they wouldn't take up the whole square.

Regarding transport - yes if it is a unit, it would be a little silly to have an entire unit of transports to take one guy -- maybe a team of spies -- to enemy territory. I agree with you there skywalker.

	30-12-2003 18:47									#51
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I remember in the List for Civ 3 somebody said we should assign "bulk" values to all units. So you don't get ships that can carry eight tanks but not nine spies.

That is a good idea whether or not spy units are in. But if there are spy units, clearly they would have a very small "bulk" rating.

	30-12-2003 19:17									#52
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Not sure whether I'd like a spy to be a unit or abstraction, but if it was a unit -

Make it an amphibious unit with the same ocean movement as your fastest transport. This would model the fact that it's on board a civilian transport.

As for the 1 per tile thing, we're talking in another thread about submarines, and how they should be able to "go under" enemy units. Once that mechanism is in place, spies should work exactly the same. If you can't see the spy it can occupie the same tile as an enemy.

Obviously there needs to be some resolution of what happens when you discover a spy or sub in the same tile as your units. The specifics can be worked out, but the bottom line is that its possible.

	30-12-2003 19:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by wrylachlan Make it an amphibious unit with the same ocean movement as your fastest transport. This would model the fact that it's on board a civilian transport. As for the 1 per tile thing, we're talking in another thread about submarines, and how they should be able to "go under" enemy units. Once that mechanism is in place, spies should work exactly the same. If you can't see the spy it can occupie the same tile as an enemy. Obviously there needs to be some resolution of what happens when you discover a spy or sub in the same tile as your units. The specifics can be worked out, but the bottom line is that its possible.

for the first paragraph
for the second paragraph
for the third paragraph

	30-12-2003 21:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner for the first paragraph for the second paragraph for the third paragraph

As a corollary, to make it more realistic, during wartime, the spy unit appears as a transport when on the ocean. After all, you can't really expect a civilian transport from another civ to be able to get through your forces unmolested.

One of the problems with having the spy as a unit is how do you differentiate potential spying activities with "just passing through"? If America wants to spy on Russia, it sends a spy unit by plane to allied Germany. Before the spy can get to Russia, the Germans "discover" it. Does your relationship with Germany sour? Even though the spy was meant for Russia and just passing through?

My solution to this problem is that if a friendly nation sees a spy, there is no problem. BUT... they keep track of that spy. If you try to USE that spy, his attempt allways fails and you get a reputation hit. If an enemy nation sees a spy they kill it on sight, or maybe capture it to trade it back in exchange for one of theirs.

	30-12-2003 22:38									#55
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So you want to go to the utter unrealism of building a transport to send your spy to the other county? Of having the spy take up an ENTIRE TILE?

Yes - its certainly not any more unreal than infinite rail movement.

Nothing like making the player actually have to go to the trouble to pre-plan for an event either...

	30-12-2003 23:26									#56
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quote: Yes - its certainly not any more unreal than infinite rail movement.

Which you know I don't support

	31-12-2003 19:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Yes - its certainly not any more unreal than infinite rail movement. Which you know I don't support

Actually, I should of used the concept of sending a units into battle one at a time as the only way to resolve conflicts as my example of unrealism...

...but I digress

	02-01-2004 08:47									#58
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One of the good things about Assymetric units over abstractions is that as a unit it more easily becomes part of your turn to think about such things. Espionage and the like abstracted into separate screens makes it too easy to forget, IMO.

I'm a big fan of incorporating leaders and personalities more into Civ4. As part of this, maybe we could increase the distinction between leaders/personalities and normal units. ie. Leaders and personalities don't follow the normal rules for military units, be it visibility, hidden nationality, immunity to ZOC. In this way a spy for example could travel on the enemies trade network unmolested, use his airports, travel faster, coexist in tiles shared by the enemy, etc.

Another aspect of this could be that while units can't be bribed, unit leaders and ministers / advisors can. Furthermore a caught spy could be turned and become a double agent.

One gimmick in regards to visibility of assymetric units or personalities is that after they make their attack, they become visible. I can imagine it would be great fun trying to get that spec ops team out of the country after it has assassinated a leader and the whole country's military is gunning for them :

	03-01-2004 23:37									#59
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quote: One of the good things about Assymetric units over abstractions is that as a unit it more easily becomes part of your turn to think about such things. Espionage and the like abstracted into separate screens makes it too easy to forget, IMO.

I agree Merp. I prefer units to absractions... although I do agree with the other that abstractions *could* be done in a realitively nice manner- I still think that units would be more in keeping with the civ spirit.

as for the comment about them taking up an entire tile- that's really just a stupid quibble- you can put more than 1 unit in any one tile... the tile-taking up is just a representation [and perhaps the spy represents a cadre of trained units... didja ever think of that? ]

However, this leads me to a suggestion about the map that civ uses... Perhaps, if many things are changed, then this map might be the best way for civ to go...

Civ could possible adopt a map like Shogun: Total War or Medieval: Total War in which the units are placed on sections of the national provinces. Therefore, instead of hexes or squares- the provinces can fluctuate in size as the culture of both a civ and of a city grow... Provinces could grow up around cities and have farms, etc. grow within them.

It would be a radical altering of civ- but one that would probably be necessary for aesthetic reasons if civ were to go 3D (oh horror) and to have a spherical globe

Just a suggestion

	03-01-2004 23:40									#60
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and fosse's idea about bulk ratings for units would also serve the idea of a spy unit being less massive than armor, etc.

I would however, have to argue against the amphibious unit idea- I would rather have the spy transported by a transport and let off- just because it would seem strange to have the spy 'gliding across water' unless of course the graphical image were to change when it goes into water... and seemingly model a civilian cruiser carrying a spy unit... that would make sense.