16-12-2003 21:04									#1
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Here's how Europe could shape up.

The first column is the countries which will constitute the "core Europe". The middle column is the undecided countries and the last column is the "periphery" countries, those that will be kept outside the "core Europe" states.

Forgive the quality and you need to know either greek or the flag of each country to get it.

Attachment: europi.gif
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	16-12-2003 21:08									#2
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you call France 'Gallia'?

	16-12-2003 21:09									#3
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what else?

	16-12-2003 21:10									#4
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Looks good. The rest will succumb eventually, though their 3 strong ones (Italy 58, Poland 40, Spain 40) will be though. What does Malta do on the revolting side anyway?

	16-12-2003 21:12									#5
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didn't notice anything special apart from that, the "ias" not counted... ollandia etc

What do the column titles mean? does the first mean as much as "hyper"?

	16-12-2003 21:12									#6
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Malta seems very anti-EU in general.

	16-12-2003 21:12									#7
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So what's the difference of being part of the "Core Europe" elite as opposed the "Rabble Europe" outcasts?

	16-12-2003 21:14									#8
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Yes Hyper = in favor, den exoun ekdilo8ei = have not yet expressed (themselves) and Kata = against

	16-12-2003 21:14									#9
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Column 1: France and Germany (standing up for their national interest whilst pretending to be in favour of the "European interest") and those subservient to them
Column 2: Those countries without either the guts or power to stand up to France and Germany
Column 3: Those countries prepared to stand up for their national interests

	16-12-2003 21:14									#10
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ghengis - the core are those who want quick progress, the others only want economic benefits but won't cede souvereignity.

	16-12-2003 21:15									#11
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Iain, are you saying the countries in column 1 and 3 are just the same?

	16-12-2003 21:15									#12
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last column = nationalistic relics

	16-12-2003 21:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb So what's the difference of being part of the "Core Europe" elite as opposed the "Rabble Europe" outcasts?

The first column and those of the middle column which will join will have common judiciary, police, all common tax, common foreign policy and common defense, eventually. In short a federacy.
The others will join later, breathing heavily and dragging their feet as usual

	16-12-2003 21:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Iain, are you saying the countries in column 1 and 3 are just the same?

Well, yes and no. The first group stand directly behind French and German interests (presumably because they believe that French and German interests coincide with their own, or because they can't afford to upset them), but still attempt to convince others that their views are in the "collective interest" (though I might add that personally, I don't believe such a collective interest exists, hence my opposition to further integration).

The third group are at least honest with their intentions.

Anyway, it looks like a multi-speed Europe is now inevitable. Yay.

	16-12-2003 21:23									#15
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better multi speed than all countries on the same speed as Poland and the UK

	16-12-2003 21:24									#16
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Yay

	16-12-2003 21:30									#17
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Spain has been always very Europeist. It's only our current goverment who is not pro-europe. And we've elections in 4 months, so it'll change again

	16-12-2003 21:31									#18
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hopefully it will. how are polls?

	16-12-2003 21:32									#19
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don't listen to EiF, he's a tory.

	16-12-2003 21:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Spain has been always very Europeist. It's only our current goverment who is not pro-europe. And we've elections in 4 months, so it'll change again

Alright!

	16-12-2003 21:37									#21
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Why is the UK vilifies for not wanting to becoame part of a federal state.

Why not be honest and I mean your leaders here and put a proposal on the table that means you will all withdraw and form your own union without the UK unless the UK stops threatning vetoes, in return we get our free trade and an ability to consult on other issues. And we get our money back.

	16-12-2003 21:43									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion hopefully it will. how are polls?

Well, the polls give an advantage to Popular Party (center-rigth), but the thing is that Aznar promised to remain 8 years maximum at Prime Minister, so he is not going to run in these lections.

So, Aznar is going to leave office in about 4 months. The new president will be either Zapatero (socialist) or Rajoy (conservative), two men that are knew by their diplomatic, cooperative behaviour.

	16-12-2003 21:58									#23
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I've been very pro-EU for the whole 90's, but the more I know about the European Union, the more I have started to doubt. The idea sounds good in theory, but... I'm starting to think that the Finland should just quit EU, there's nothing but corruption, bureucracy and nepotism in it.

	16-12-2003 23:42									#24
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Quit NATO as well? Good bye Fritz, hello Ivan!

	16-12-2003 23:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Quit NATO as well? Good bye Fritz, hello Ivan!

why should quiting the EU mean quiting NATO - last I checked the USA was a member of one, not the other.


Dare I plug NAFTA again? The idea of UK in NAFTA has been pushed by Conrad Black, Maggie Thatcher, among others. Problem is 50% of UK's trade is with EU, so theyre likely to stay in some "slow track" europe, along with the others. Still its an option.

	16-12-2003 23:54									#26
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nafta said

	16-12-2003 23:57									#27
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When Europe is a Federal Republic, will your less progressive parts still have Kings and Queens?

	16-12-2003 23:59									#28
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as long as you keep turkey out.

	16-12-2003 23:59									#29
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that's what I was thinking about earlier.

at some point, when the federal European government is leftist enough, any form of aristocracy will be abolished, including any monarchy within the rea... federation. I will be the man instituting and asserting that move.

	17-12-2003 00:04									#30
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When Europe is a Federal Republic, will your less progressive parts still have Kings and Queens?

A bas les Aristos