16-12-2003 22:39									#1
	Forest vs Farm/Solar Poll Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Manic and I seem to have reached an impass on what to build in the Pi Square area.

I propose a farm/solar combination that can bring in 2/1/2 (build on a river).

Manic Proposes a Forest (also built on a river) for 1/2/2


I belive the farm/solar combination to be superior because it maintains our population growth and because its rolling still manages to bring in half the minerals the forest dose. By maintaining 3 surpluss Nuts in Pi Square we can quicky gain an addition population which can harvest from yet another such farm giving still more of the precius minerals that a forest though semingly providing in the short run will actualy cost us in the long run do too its low Nut output. As we are unlily to have access to TreeFarms or Bore Holes for some time we would esentialy be halting or nearly halting the bases growth by continuing to build and work forests as their are no additional Nut/Forest combinations to use. In addition consider that farm/solars can bring in an additional energy each which will offset the maintance of Holo Theathers which we must build in any event.


Manic Proposes that we move a worker off of the 2/1/2 tile currently being worked and onto this new forest when built to slow down the bases growth which is scedualed for 10 turns if we assume that we will be taking Democracy in 2150 after we take it from PEACE then growth would be accelerated. Asiming the rediced Nut intake comes in 4 years the base would grow 7 turns from now. This new worker will have to be a doctor untill we build a Holotheather so surpluss Nuts are 0 and the base is frozen untill TreeFarms come along. Once these are built the worker is freed up and can I presume works another forest. This would yeild an out put of +3 minerals and +2 energy (both forest are ofcorse on rivers). Growth could be faster if we build Recycling tanks, unfortunatly they get shoot down every time I propose them


If we go with my plan though the base can grow in 6 turns, again this worker is temporarily a doctor. Surpluss Nuts would remain 3 alowing the base to grow again in aproimatly 14 turns. Before that it will be bringing in +1 minerals and +2 energy above current intake. After growth it will bring in +2 minerals and +4 energy (assuming we work a second 2/1/2). And it maintians growth beyond this point aswell. Admitedly more former time will be needed for farm/solar combo then for forests but as we dont have access to more advanced terraforming yet and likly wont for the 10 turns this will take to perform their is little else of value to do in the area, likly we will also be building more formers in preperation fo BoreHoles anyways.


Manic will likly wish to argue his side of the issue now, please refrain from voting untill he has had a chance to do so, The poll is set for 3 days, our turn will likly come and go before this closes though.

	17-12-2003 04:02									#2
	Re: Forest vs Farm/Solar Poll Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Manic will likly wish to argue his side of the issue now, please refrain from voting untill he has had a chance to do so

Thanks.

First I'd like to note that I don't so much oppose cultivating a farm for increasing growth, but above all building a costly solar collector for the meager gain of one energy, which can be gained much faster by other terraformations such as a forest.

Anyway, if I understand things correctly, when we plant a forest and switch a worker to it, that worker will be producing 1 nut, 2 mins & 2 energy. Effects:
The base will grow slower, delaying the need for a hologram theatre. In these times of war, the 6 rows that would have to be spent on a hologram theatre can be beter used for 1.5 impact cruisers, 2 impact marines or 3 plasma garrisons or probe defences.
By working the forest we will produce one more mineral right now. This is indeed thinking on the short term, but as our goal is to produce as lots of military units as possible right now to beat PEACE, the short term is what matters, not what happens in ten years.

Working a 2/1/2 will generate the same amount of energy, one less mineral and one more nut allowing Pi Sq to grow faster. When the base grows, the new worker will have to be a doctor, just like in my forest proposal. If we would build a costly Hologram Theatre (which I advise against for now: see above), that other worker would be freed however, making the two worker together produce two mins and four energy. Do keep in mind however that a Hologram Theatre requires 3 energy to support. Deducting that, the two farm&solar collector tiles would only produce two mins and one energy, less than a forest.

So letting Pi Square grow will not only divert 6 mineral rows from war production to a Holo Theatre, it will also decrease the amount of energy we gain in the long term, and decrease our mineral production on the short term.

Some specific remarks:

quote: In addition consider that farm/solars can bring in an additional energy each which will offset the maintance of Holo Theathers which we must build in any event.

On 0-1000 metre height forests (4 turns to plant) produce equal amounts of energy as solar collectors (6 turns). And we must indeed build Holo Theatre eventually, but preferably not now.

quote: Growth could be faster if we build Recycling tanks, unfortunatly they get shoot down every time I propose them

Sorry. We seem to disagree a lot lately. It's just that these are special circumstances with the PEACE war and all.

quote: Admitedly more former time will be needed for farm/solar combo then for forests but as we dont have access to more advanced terraforming yet and likly wont for the 10 turns this will take to perform their is little else of value to do in the area, likly we will also be building more formers in preperation fo BoreHoles anyways.

In the six turns that the former would spend more building a farm & solar collector instead of a forest, that former could plant one-and-a-half forest extra. The forests will probably not be used all right now, but crawlers can use them to harvest minerals once we can switch back to civil production and build the crawlers.

	17-12-2003 05:06									#3
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I'd have to say I go with Maniac. In the absense of The WP, or Eco Eng, I favour foresting a lot. In many games, boreholes and condensors (crawled for nuts) provides the best of all worlds, but without the WP, with units needed ASAP, and without the former time to spare for such an illustrious plan, I favour pretty much carpet foresting, and Tree Farms ASAP.

	17-12-2003 14:36									#4
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Ditto Maniac and Drogue.

I voted for flora too

	17-12-2003 19:24									#5
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I would like to point out that the Hologram Theather is virtualy unavoidable no mater what if we take Democracy in the near future (likly 2150 after we take Ethical Calculas from PEACE). This will shave off 2 Nuts per row and put the base at around 6 turns to grow from the present. The Impact Cruiser will be finished in about 4 turns leaving us no time to make additional units for the war. Even then we will have to run a doctor for several turns before the Theather is finished. Unless we delay taking Democracy for a LONG time and cut even more deeply into our long term growth we are going to have to deal with Pi Square (and many other bases) growing.

	17-12-2003 19:31									#6
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I don't see why we can't use doctors until the war ends.

	17-12-2003 19:52									#7
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Well then whats the point of doing any terraforming at ALL?? We wont have any additional workers or crawlers for quite some time if that is what we do. How long do you want to wait before Pi can return to non-military builds? We already have second wave troops planned and in production in many bases, shouldn't we start worrying about growth and internal building or will we let the other factions fly past us. I feel this "only the present matters" attitude will cost us in the long run, we will find outselves exosted and depleted from these wars and the builder factions that still remain will just roll over us with a huge Tec, Production and Pop advantage.

	17-12-2003 19:58									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Well then whats the point of doing any terraforming at ALL??

The first forest can be used by changing a worker to there. And I don't see the problems with preparing additional terraformations for after the war, even if they won't be used right now.

quote: How long do you want to wait before Pi can return to non-military builds?

I'd say until we are practically sure that PEACE can no longer resist us. We are indeed spending lots of resources on this war, but the downsides of only going half the way and spend too little resources on the war, increasing the chance of us not winning it, will be much more severe than going the full way IMHO.

	17-12-2003 21:16									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Looks like the forest won handidly, I will alter the Orders thread to include it.

I think we can reach that level of assurance in around 2155 if we do as well as I think we will, if we have taken all of their Eastern Bases by then, our attack forces our well organised and moving westward, their energy reserves are depleted and their defences remain weak then that woul be the time to throw our whole empire back into a Build oriented mode.

Would using a Crawler to bring in Nuts be an acceptable after we have had growth (which is inevitable by that point). If we are going to have a Holo Theather we might as well make full use of it, when we are nearing the limit on it we can cash it for a Secret Project or re-assign it to another base.

	19-12-2003 15:28									#10
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We'll be able to recoup on the other factions' economical advantage once we have all those juicy Pirates bases. It's a lot more efficient to just capture theirs than to build up ours slowly

	20-12-2003 19:25									#11
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I concur! Long live assimilation!