17-12-2003 03:49									#1
	Government Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I would like the ability to deeply customize the form of governent instead of just picking one from a list of generic types. For example weather to have the government partisan, in a democracy how many branches are there, how the executive is chosen (president or parlimentary prime minister), who has suffrage, and if your government is democracy or republic you should stand for election on a regular basis. This would require you to explain and be responible for your actions. I know that standing for re-election may become annoying, so then have an option where your government could be like Rome, where you are an emperor for life with no fear of removal and an openly elected government underneath you. then you would have to work and compromise with the elected officials. The way the government is now there is no distinct difference between the goverments because in each case you are still an absolute ruler, you can declare war and negotiate treaties at will with no ratification, and you can never be removed unless by force from an invading nation.
I also wouldn't mind having a detailed government tree like the diplomacy tree where there are distinct people holding the various jobs and that you can negotiate with political rivals in order to pass laws or gain political allies to ensure political survival. I know this would require a massive engine, i think it has the potential of adding massive amounts of reply value.
That is all I have to say for now.

	17-12-2003 04:18									#2
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The current discussion on this sort of thing is at this thread.

You might want to post this there, as your ideas are a good bit different than anything else that has been discussed so far.

	17-12-2003 04:20									#3
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The reason I created a new thread is because the thread you mentioned seemed to focus on upgrading the current government system. I am for a complete overhaul. Write a new engine and if it is too complicated and not appealing for some players, give them the option of turning it off.

	17-12-2003 04:43									#4
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Good call. Even have the chance to have elections for representatives from different cities to give a insight for what the people want. Also for the administrators (ie foreign, military, etc... the guys that appear in th corner.) If you do this online play, even vs. computer, would have a twist for spying because it could be possible to insert one of your own guys and give flas information or something... it could get extremely detailed and realistic if done right.

	17-12-2003 04:49									#5
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Another point, it would also complicate and create a challenge in terms of changing the government. Now you just decided to have a revolution with no fear that you will lose that revolution. If the gov. engine is more complex with people with their own ambitions in the mix, it would cause for strategy and have substance to the overthrowing of the establishment. If you control the military and have a massive presence in the capitol you can hold the senate hostage, assasinate opposing members, or even expell the body itself, each act of course having appropriate consequence.

	17-12-2003 05:06									#6
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Well... I have to disagree that all of the discussion is about upgrading the current form. I am definatly for a break with current Civ (though admitedly closer to SMAC). I only make the suggestion because that thread is currently drawing a lot of views and replies, and it is likely that more people will be exposed to your idea there (or possibly in the Radical Ideas thread).

Not to say you did wrong, just to suggest that you'd get more exposure.

	17-12-2003 05:08									#7
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Fair enough. I will post a copy in there.

However, as an aside I would like to declare a sense of unease on the fact of trying to catagorize every single post into a series of pre-created threads created by what is an apparent aristocracy. I am not saying that is what is going on, but appearances count. Take Saddam Hussien for example. Appearances are everything.

Last edited by Cras on 17-12-2003 at 05:14

	17-12-2003 05:29									#8
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Hey Fosse! NO BODY GIVES A F**K WHAT YOU SAY! its not quite the same as that thread so who the hell cares how popular that one is... You need a life if all you do is check in and keep posting things in peoples threads of where they really should be according to you!

	17-12-2003 06:02									#9
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Cras,
I hope I didn't come across to you as saying you can't do whatever you want to, or as suggesting that threads outside of those that have been organized (by only a few people, who all seem to be trying very hard for all of us!) are inferior. I would never mean to imply that, and only wished to be friendly.

I merely did not want your suggestions to get lost beneath the oft-posted in "official" posts, and I thought I'd save Asmodeon the trouble of hunting for all the other ideas for once.

Regards,
Fosse

	17-12-2003 06:13									#10
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No Fosse, I was not complaining about you, just merely presenting a different view. I think it would be fair that there are two view points on how forums and message boards should be handled, some people believe that users should reply when ever possible, while others believe users should create whenever possible. I think the more topics the better because it formulates more direct conversation instead a few broad discusion. The downside is that it clutters the board. There is no need for you to apologize because it is obvious you have been on these boards a lot longer than I have and are more familiar with the tendencies of the users than I. You did nothing wrong but I do appreciate your diplomatic and noble manner in which you replied. I have encountered hostile posts and your elegant demeanor is if anything a relief and a welcome sight.

	17-12-2003 06:46									#11
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Guys, I think Fosse is trying to help Asmodean, Frozzy, and other folks who are working to organize the suggestions for Civ4. Many of the folks who went through this during the creation of Civ3 wanted to improve the methods for gathering information and sharing views. Fosse is only trying to suggest a course of action that is reasonable.

If you are really against participating in this manner, that's fine. You do have the right to post your own threads or continue this one. Let's all remain friendly. You are invited to input your comments on the {The List - Government} thread if you would like. Thanks.

	17-12-2003 06:52									#12
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I think Shogun here is just cluttering up this thread. If he read my response he would have realized that there are no hard feelings but a mere misunderstanding. I would prefer for nobody else outside of the misunderstanding to comment on the situation as it adds futher misunderstandings and they are only cluttering up the thread and preventing a real meaningful discussion on the idea presented. The idea has been reposted in the forum Fosse suggested and a formal explaination and clarifying statement has been made on my part. There was no need for Shogun to comment as it was only redundant, and added no new insight or resolution, and only adds to the liklyhood of any future misunderstanding.

	17-12-2003 07:04									#13
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Regarding the topic:

You talk about standing for reelection in a representative government being annoying (which it surely would be in Civ)... what about having a sort of party system like in GalCiv?

If you haven't played it, I'll elaborate (I've only played the demo myself).

You belong, as the player, to a political party. In Civ terms we could just make this the Presidential Party. Every so often (ten or twenty turns might be approrpiate for gameplay reasons) there is an election in which the peoples' happiness is checked to decide if the player's party gains or loses seats, and which oppostion parties get them.

If the player loses control of the Senate in this fasion, then he incurs special penalties in managing his empire, which represent the difficulties and inefficiencies of a chief executive working with an opposition legistature.

If this system is adopted for Republican and Democratic forms of governemt then it would help to change "feel" of different government types, and make for a fun new play type in those governments.

This idea is one I've put into the List threads as well, but it might be buried beneath newer posts, so I'll bring it to this table as well.

And Cras, I appreciate the kind words, and would like to welcome you to the Apolyton community as a friend!

	17-12-2003 07:09									#14
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Fossse your last post hits the heart of my proposal. Add a party system as every democracy is a party system. Add a legislature because with out one, there is no democracy. I agree with everything except for standing election. Again I do agree that there are aspects of this that would be cumbersum and become annoying, however I say why not give the player the ability to turn this option off by either a simple option in the setup menu, or by allowing the player to "adjust" his nation's government so that the chief executive does not stand of election like in Augustus' Imperial Rome but yet the Senate and other office are elected and that the Emperor has a certain amount of coat tails in that if public support is in the Emperor's favor his party gains seats and vice-versa.

And Fosse, your welcoming gesture is most generous. Thank you again.

	17-12-2003 07:34									#15
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and nice speaking to you too cras

one word: relax

	17-12-2003 07:37									#16
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Me relax? You were the one who jumped in here like there was a fist fight. If you don’t want to talk about the ideas, then please leave, otherwise offer some critique.

	17-12-2003 07:53									#17
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Okay, thanks for asking.

I like your idea as it sounds like an interesting simulation, but not for Civilization. As I understand your posting, this would be the biggest subsystem, by far, in the game. Without going into a lot of detail, it has the appearance of requiring a lot of decisions and actions to manage the government. Bottom line: a lot of extra work for the player.

Another point would be the ramifications of gameplay. Most people like Civ (whether we are talking about version 1, 2 or 3) because they decide what is built in the cities, where the military units go and how to handle relations with the other civilizations. It sounds like your suggestion would take some of the absolute power out of the hands of the player. To me that's taking the appeal out of civ.

Like I said, the idea is a stimulating idea -- almost a SimGovernment (like the line of SimCity, SimWorld, SimAnt, et al).

If you have an interest in this, you should check out the democracy games for both Civ2 and Civ3. Check the root of the Apolyton Forums Apolyton users form political parties, assign roles in the government and play a game of civ jointly discussing the strategy as they go. It's quite interesting, but takes a regular committment to stay on top of everything going on.

	17-12-2003 08:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cras If he read my response he would have realized that there are no hard feelings but a mere misunderstanding.

quote: Originally posted by maxximusarelius Hey Fosse! NO BODY GIVES A F**K WHAT YOU SAY! its not quite the same as that thread so who the hell cares how popular that one is... You need a life if all you do is check in and keep posting things in peoples threads of where they really should be according to you!

And for the record, this type of abuse of a poster is not tolerated at Apolyton. Check the FAQ. I happen to think Fosse is a decent poster, so I didn't like reading that. So, I was really directing my comment to maxximusarelius, not you Cras. Cool?

	17-12-2003 08:04									#19
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Cool. Again we had a misunderstanding and all has been clarified. I apolgize for the mishap.

I also wouldn't mind a stand alone simulation program like this. Again I would see how this could be bothering to some players. That is why I would envision a Civ 4 game having almost a traditional Civ game along the lines of Civ 3 and 2 while also including a Civ with more complex political systems and diplomatic systems for users who thirst for other and more complex levels of difficulty. Plus I see a possibility of replay value.

Last edited by Cras on 17-12-2003 at 08:11

	17-12-2003 22:25									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

To reduce complexity I envision this feature to be implemented with simple drop down menus. It doesnt have to be to complicated but just customizable and structured, not vague like it is now in Civ 3.