18-12-2003 00:28									#1
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I have decided I'd like to learn Spanish. I figure this a good discipline for myself and something I can build upon each day. Most of my thoughts (& supposedly other people's as well) come to me thru words and often I get sick of the words at my disposal, finding them inadaqute to express my inner feelings & experience.

I like the idea of being able to communicate in a new way, with new words. I can imagine that by learning a new language I will have to think about the way I communicate in genral and which words, phrases, etc. are truly important to me to learn.

I also like the idea of suprising a young Latin American maiden by starting a conversation with her in her native tounge and being able to have "private" conversations in public arenas.

Any advice on the best way to learn a language (I know school didn't work very effectively)? I know alot of you have English as your second language.

Any good forums in Spanish that y'all know of? Or websites with alot of vocabulary/translations?

If you'd like, share your experiences or learning/knowing multiple languages.

Thanks!

- Narz

	18-12-2003 00:42									#2
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There's a Spanish civ forum right here.

But the best advice I could give about learning a language is: find someone to speak Spanish with.

Of course, get some learning books, or take a course at a local education center if available. But using the language in real situations is best.

	18-12-2003 00:45									#3
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I'm studying Spanish right now too!

Many of the ppl I work with know spanish, so I get an opportunity to use it now and then...

	18-12-2003 00:55									#4
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He who knows only one language knows no language at all, or so they say. So on the decision to learn a new language.

What Anun said. Unsurprisingly, the best way to achieve fluency is to use the language as much as possible. Order your meal in Spanish, even if they understand English etc. Also, constantly aim for something on a higher level so that your skills are constantly in development.

Purchase a high-quality computer game (one with a lot of text in it) in Spanish. I used to switch Civ2 into German and that helped somewhat in learning it.

	18-12-2003 01:32									#5
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Narz:

first of all, I would like to inivte you to visit the Spanish forum of apolyton:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdis...id=160&x=18&y=9

you can post both in Spanish and English there. Also, there is a chat in this webpage that is a mixed english-spanish chat:

http://espanglishchat.com/

There are a lot of people, specially from Spain, Mexico and the UK that are willing to help you (because the chat has been set-up in order to improve either your english or your spain).

There are also a Spanish Institution, called the "Instituto Cervantes" (after Cervantes, the famous writer), in some cities, where you can learn Spanish (I believe for free). In USA I'm pretty sure that there is one at New York, and probably more.

And don't hesiate to contact me (dejamk@hotmail.NOSPAM.com, without the NOSPAM) at Microsoft Messenger, or by email at javiermunozk@eresmas.NOSPAM.com (withouth the NOSPAM of course) if I can help you in any way.

There are also translations of Spanish for both Civ2 and Civ3 that I can provide you if you want to play your favorites games in Spanish. And many spanish book can be readed online, if you dare to.

	18-12-2003 01:38									#6
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I already mentioned the Spanish Civ forum... thanx for stealing my trueno!

	18-12-2003 01:39									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Narz I also like the idea of suprising a young Latin American maiden by starting a conversation with her in her native tounge and being able to have "private" conversations in public arenas.

Explain: When you say you intend converse in her native tounge, do you mean you will meet her in a bar and lounge in her town? Is that some local slang for a town's lounge?

	18-12-2003 01:41									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba I already mentioned the Spanish Civ forum... thanx for stealing my trueno!

I've noticed and of course the credits is deserved to you. However I wanted to provide a link

	18-12-2003 02:17									#9
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Seems like everybody is learning spanish nowadays

and me too of course

¡Hola! ¿Que tal?
¿Que les pongo?
Una cerveza por favor! - Gracias.

	18-12-2003 03:57									#10
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I like language software. It hasn't gotten me anywhere near fluency so far, but it has taught me much more than I knew before.

Do not, by any means, get sidetracked by any other language. Focus on one.

I learned some Spanish in elementary school in Texas and New Mexico. Now that I'm an adult in California, I am surprised at how little Spanish people around me know.

I took one year of German in high school, all that was available at that school at that time, but ask the people who posted on my Germanic Heritage thread, I'm lousy.

The language the software has helped me with the most is Norwegian, but I get sidetracked by the many other languages bundled in the same software. Books have also helped with Norwegian.

Watch DVDs with the Spanish tracks. I've done this with German.

Spanish is generally the most important foreign language for Americans to learn, but I like studying the languages of my heritage as well as exotic ones such as those of Native Americans. Of course, I get nowhere because I don't pick one and stick to it.

	18-12-2003 04:07									#11
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I will be learning Spanish next semester, as I'm going to study in Spain next year and I'm looking forward to it

the big advantage here is that the more languages you know, the easier it is to learn languages that share the same origin.
I already understand some stuff here and there in Spanish, thanks to French; A lot of words are the same, with a few letters difference

ps: watching movies with subtitles is a great help

	18-12-2003 04:14									#12
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espanol en los estados unidos es muy importante IMO.

	18-12-2003 05:03									#13
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My experience with foreign languages could be interesting for you, I think.

I begun to learn German since the age of 8. I traveled numerous times to Germany, and I even ended up living in Stuttgart for 2 whole years, studying there in German.

OTOH, I learned English through videogames, and I become more and more fluent with English with Apolyton.

Despite having never travelled to Britain, I write and read English much better than I do German. The reason for that is very simple: I spend much more time on 'Poly than speaking with Krauts (In Germany, I spend waaaay to much time with my French friends)

I chime in with the others: exercize your skills. Speak as much Spanish as possible. If you are young, go spend a few months or a year in a Spanish-speaking country, and refuse to speak English there even if it's more convenient.

And congrats for your decision of learning a new language It opens a whole new range of possibilities for the way of developing your thought

	18-12-2003 05:13									#14
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As for something concrete:

Language books are good to begin with, becaue you'll have the basics everybody direly needs when learning a language. You say you learned Spanish at school, so maybe you already have such basics.

Subtitled movies are great Simply great. You get acquainted with the words and the overall "sound" of the language, and on the other hand, you are SURE of the meaning of what you hear. If the subtitles are good, it is a sure way to progress if you're exposed enough.

The overall "sound" of a language is something very important, and it's quite difficult to master. THere are many things you'll understand perfectly if they're written, yet you wouldn't understand if they are spoken: that's simply because your ear is used to English "sound", and not to Spanish "sound".
"Sound" is something very subtle, and knoying the individual pronunciation of each letter will not be enough to master it. Accentuation, skipped syllabes (sp?) etc. are characteristics of a language, and you can only learn them by listening, listening, listening.

A clear example of "sound" differences is between Frenchmen and Quebecois. Both French-speaking people have very different accents, and despite a similar vocabulary, it is sometimes extremely hard for a Frenchman to understand Quebecois. That's because the "sound" on each side of the Atlantic has evolved in a radically different way.

	18-12-2003 05:23									#15
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sort of an english-american evolution then

	18-12-2003 05:57									#16
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quote: He who knows only one language knows no language at all, or so they say.

That's bullshit. Learning a new language sucks and I would recommend against it to anyone.

	18-12-2003 06:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: He who knows only one language knows no language at all, or so they say. That's bullshit. Learning a new language sucks and I would recommend against it to anyone.

just a matter of how good you are at it. perhaps you're more talented with numbers...

I know brilliant students able to solve all kids of difficult math problems, yet at the same time they're not able to learn French basics

	18-12-2003 06:14									#18
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French? French is child's play. I'm talking about real language learning.

	18-12-2003 06:20									#19
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okay then, what's a real language for you
it's not american, that I know!

	18-12-2003 06:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten French? French is child's play. I'm talking about real language learning.

Japanese is much easier than French. The only difficult thing in Japanese is the learning curve at the beginning, as there are basically 4 several languages to learn if you want to understand anything. Also, although they could write anything in Kana, they insist in writing in Kanji. As a result, it is often easier for the beginner to express himself in Japanese than to understand what he's told.

But grammar, vocabulary (no feminine or masculine) and sonority is outrageously easy to get in Japanese. Once the learning curve stops to be steep (quite quickly), there are infinitely fewer headaches than in French.

	18-12-2003 06:23									#21
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quote: Japanese is much easier than French.

Grammatically, yes. Throw in the writing systems (kanji ), however, and it's really no contest.

quote: Once the learning curve stops to be steep (quite quickly)

God, how I wish this were true...

	18-12-2003 06:24									#22
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Indonesian is fairly easy as Asian languages go. It uses the Roman alphabet, the grammar is very regular, and all the words are pronounced the way they're spelled.

	18-12-2003 06:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Japanese is much easier than French. The only difficult thing in Japanese is the learning curve at the beginning, as there are basically 4 several languages to learn if you want to understand anything. Also, although they could write anything in Kana, they insist in writing in Kanji. As a result, it is often easier for the beginner to express himself in Japanese than to understand what he's told. But grammar, vocabulary (no feminine or masculine) and sonority is outrageously easy to get in Japanese. Once the learning curve stops to be steep (quite quickly), there are infinitely fewer headaches than in French.

wooot te fook!

French is, in fact child's play... I'd rather not get into Japanese btw

	18-12-2003 06:26									#24
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For speakers of English, French is quite easy indeed. Ditto other Romance languages and German.

	18-12-2003 06:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus French is, in fact child's play... I'd rather not get into Japanese btw

Do you know how to use the imparfait du subjonctif properly? For that matter, do you know how to use the subjonctif properly at all? Can you distinguish between "il finit" (present tense) and "il finit" (past tense)? Do you know the plural of "amarante"? Can you hope to ever say "ornithrynque" properly if you're a foreigner?

These kind of problems do not happen in Japanese becuse grammar is streamlined, the pronunciation is simple save for their horrible l/r, and the vocabulary is not that plentiful.

	18-12-2003 06:40									#26
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quote: These kind of problems do not happen in Japanese becuse grammar is streamlined

Yes, although the large amount of inflection and the differences between casual, polite, humble and honorific forms of words are difficult for speakers of English.

quote: the pronunciation is simple save for their horrible l/r

Yes. The l/r sound isn't even that bad.

quote: and the vocabulary is not that plentiful.

I don't know about that.

	18-12-2003 07:22									#27
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I want to learn French- I studied it as a small kid, so I still have the ability to pronounce it well-with a good six months of intensive training I think I would do pretty well.

	18-12-2003 07:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Can you hope to ever say "ornithrynque" properly if you're a foreigner?

Certainly.

ORRNITRÅÅÅÅHNKK, Spiffor!

I added you to my buddy list. I don't know what it's used for and I constantly hit that button by mistake, but hey... you seem like somebody who's worthy of buddiness, which can't possibly be a real word.

	18-12-2003 07:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Do you know how to use the imparfait du subjonctif properly? For that matter, do you know how to use the subjonctif properly at all? Can you distinguish between "il finit" (present tense) and "il finit" (past tense)? Do you know the plural of "amarante"? Can you hope to ever say "ornithrynque" properly if you're a foreigner? These kind of problems do not happen in Japanese becuse grammar is streamlined, the pronunciation is simple save for their horrible l/r, and the vocabulary is not that plentiful.

Mais bien sur, Spiffor, old chum. What was amusing was getting our French assistant Sylvain to try to pronounce squirrels and dwarves, and latchstring and thirty three and two thirds. And getting him acquainted with the multifarious gradations of English tenses- all of the equivalents he knew in French, but sorting out the English ones was very frustrating. And let's not get into the vexed matter of English orthography not even approximating English pronunciation.

Through though bough enough cough thought sough bought thorough nought hiccough chough.

How to make a French assistant implode. I miss not using French- such a supple, graceful flowing language, with many beautiful sonorous felicities.

	18-12-2003 08:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Japanese is much easier than French.

I thought CIA (or some other US agency) rated Japanese as one of the most difficult languages at grade 5 (or something like that), together with Chinese and Arabic?