18-12-2003 04:26									#31
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quote: Well these "disturbances" might be too ****ing bad for us, but Iraqis have to eat too.

I guess we could leave them to their own devices. But you'd ***** about that as well, wouldn't you?

quote: If these industries are totally unprofitable, unions would be no threat to privatization.

Who ever said these industries are TOTALLY unprofitable? If they lay off a certain percentage then they will be profitable.

quote: They are the basis of democracy, and in fact they are the basest form of democracy. Rebuilding a totalitarian society starts with rebuilding worker organization.

Bull. Rebuilding totalitarian states starts with rebuilding the infrastructure. Worker organization can come later. At this moment in time it is not needed, unless they agree not to strike (which will never in 1000 years happen).

	18-12-2003 04:26									#32
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Who said they were unprofitable at all?

	18-12-2003 04:28									#33
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quote: It is easy to suspend instead of forbidding, then to start the discussion about the organization of the future unions

From the article it seems the intention is to suspend unions. At least until the reorganization of the government (privatization, etc.).

	18-12-2003 04:29									#34
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quote: Who said they were unprofitable at all?

Dathar Al-Kashab, manager of Baghdad's Al Daura oil refinery, predicted that privatization would have an enormous effect. "A worker starting here today has a job for life, under the old system," he explains, "and there's no law which permits me to lay him off. But if I put on the hat of privatization, I'll have to fire 1500 [of the refinery's 3000] workers.

	18-12-2003 04:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The country's businesses were solvent until the war and embargo.

i.e. ten years ago

	18-12-2003 04:30									#36
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That doesn't say it was unprofitable. The company was making money hand over fist under Saddam. Just because it could make an even greater profit doesn't mean it isn't making one.

	18-12-2003 04:31									#37
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That doesn't mean it's unprofitable. That just means it could be more profitable.

	18-12-2003 04:31									#38
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quote: That doesn't say it was nuprofitable. The company was making money hand over fist under Saddam.

Obviously it is unprofitable NOW. That's why they would have to lay off workers. Maybe they were making money under Saddam, but not anymore.

	18-12-2003 04:32									#39
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There's nothing obvious about it.

	18-12-2003 04:33									#40
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The're going to open the market to foreign competition. That's why they will have to lay off workers

	18-12-2003 04:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's nothing obvious about it.

Yes there is. If they were profitable, why would they "have" to lay off workers?

	18-12-2003 04:37									#42
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quote: I guess we could leave them to their own devices. But you'd ***** about that as well, wouldn't you?

I won't be content until there's anarcho-sydnicalism in Iraq. That should've been a given.

quote: Bull. Rebuilding totalitarian states starts with rebuilding the infrastructure. Worker organization can come later.

At which point it may very well be too late. There's no reason they can't happen simultaneously.

quote: At this moment in time it is not needed,

Not needed by whom? It's needed for the average Iraqi if not Bremer.

quote: unless they agree not to strike (which will never in 1000 years happen).

Strikes are good things if workers' welfare is being protected, if democracy is being established.

	18-12-2003 04:38									#43
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quote: Yes there is. If they were profitable, why would they "have" to lay off workers?

Increasing profit due to the demands of foreign owners.

	18-12-2003 04:40									#44
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quote: There's no reason they can't happen simultaneously.

It is greatly more difficult.

quote: Not needed by whom? It's needed for the average Iraqi if not Bremer.

Not needed by our efforts to get the country up and working.

quote: Strikes are good things if workers' welfare is being protected, if democracy is being established.

Are they a good thing if they paralyze a nascent government which hasn't even been established, all the while terrorist groups are making things sticky in the boonies? I don't think so.

Workers' welfare can wait.

	18-12-2003 04:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yes there is. If they were profitable, why would they "have" to lay off workers?

I work for Vistakon, the most profitable division of Johnson & Johnson. We made $1.4 billion in profits last year. Since I've been working here, the company has laid of hundreds of employees. Just because you are making a profit doesn't mean you can't make more of one.

	18-12-2003 04:41									#46
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A strike is an organized political act-which, if what one claims to which to create is democracy, is a good thing, since these sorts of political actions are the bread abd butter of democracy. What anti-union people are syaing here is: dmeocracy in Iraq can wait until they get a dmemocracy! How would that work?

	18-12-2003 04:44									#47
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quote: It is greatly more difficult.

No, it'd be easier. Employed, fed Iraqis mean Iraqis that won't turn to the Arab nationalist or Islamist resistances who are trying to destroy the infrastructure.

quote: Are they a good thing if they paralyze a nascent government which hasn't even been established, all the while terrorist groups are making things sticky in the boonies? I don't think so. Workers' welfare can wait.

What do you think is fueling the manpower of terrorists and other militants? In large part, it's unemployment. You've got a similar dynamic in West Bank/Gaza with unemployment at extremely high levels.

	18-12-2003 04:45									#48
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quote: I work for Vistakon, the most profitable division of Johnson & Johnson. We made $1.4 billion in profits last year. Since I've been working here, the company has laid of hundreds of employees. Just because you are making a profit doesn't mean you can't make more of one.

Let's quote the second part of what the person said:

In America when a company lays people off, there's unemployment insurance, and they won't die from hunger. If I dismiss employees now, I'm killing them and their families.

HE DOESN'T WANT to lay off anyone, but has to. This indicates that the company is unprofitable without government help.

quote: A strike is an organized political act-which, if what one claims to which to create is democracy, is a good thing, since these sorts of political actions are the bread abd butter of democracy. What anti-union people are syaing here is: dmeocracy in Iraq can wait until they get a dmemocracy! How would that work?

Or rather, popular protest acts can wait until a democratic government is in put in place. Then do it to your heart's content. Until then, put a lid on it for a little bit so we can get stuff working.

	18-12-2003 04:45									#49
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I wonder-did the occupation governments of Germany ban unions? What about in Japan? I am sure both those states had anti-union laws: I wonder when they were ended?

	18-12-2003 04:47									#50
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quote: HE DOESN'T WANT to lay off anyone, but has to. This indicates that the company is unprofitable without government help.

j

Or he'll be ordered to by the new owners. It's not like the managers will take up ownership of businesses.

quote: Or rather, popular protest acts can wait until a democratic government is in put in place. Then do it to your heart's content. Until then, put a lid on it for a little bit so we can get stuff working.

There won't be a democratic gov't unless the society is built on democracy, namely unions.

	18-12-2003 04:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or rather, popular protest acts can wait until a democratic government is in put in place. Then do it to your heart's content. Until then, put a lid on it for a little bit so we can get stuff working.

Oh, so you mean all those demonstrations LoTM always starts post about should have been cracked down with? I mean, they were popualr protest of one sort or another. Or those huge Shia rallies-obviously the US should have gone in shooting! And all those rallies by Sadr..subversionists!

If you say all rallies should be banned for the sakes of security, next time LoTM brings up some rally about protesting violence, make sure to chime in and denounce those bastards undermining order and helping the terrorists.

	18-12-2003 04:49									#52
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quote: No, it'd be easier. Employed, fed Iraqis mean Iraqis that won't turn to the Arab nationalist or Islamist resistances who are trying to destroy the infrastructure.

You assume they'd be employed (and not just scabs would be hired). Second, strikers who disrupt the business have much more of a bad impact on infrastructure building.

quote: What do you think is fueling the manpower of terrorists and other militants? In large part, it's unemployment.

Unemployment doesn't lead to terrorism in other states. The ideology of radical Islam leads to it. Btw, many rich, wealthy people turned to terrorism as well (if you forgot who's on top of Al Queda).

	18-12-2003 04:49									#53
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quote: I wonder-did the occupation governments of Germany ban unions? What about in Japan? I am sure both those states had anti-union laws: I wonder when they were ended?

Absolutely not. I'm not sure about Germany, but unions were actively fostered in Japan. These were New Dealers that ran the occupation gov't's. It was only later , the mid-50's IIRC, that anti-union laws were created .

	18-12-2003 04:49									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No, it'd be easier. Employed, fed Iraqis mean Iraqis that won't turn to the Arab nationalist or Islamist resistances who are trying to destroy the infrastructure. What do you think is fueling the manpower of terrorists and other militants? In large part, it's unemployment. You've got a similar dynamic in West Bank/Gaza with unemployment at extremely high levels.

Those people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

	18-12-2003 04:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I work for Vistakon, the most profitable division of Johnson & Johnson. We made $1.4 billion in profits last year. Since I've been working here, the company has laid of hundreds of employees. Just because you are making a profit doesn't mean you can't make more of one. Let's quote the second part of what the person said: In America when a company lays people off, there's unemployment insurance, and they won't die from hunger. If I dismiss employees now, I'm killing them and their families. HE DOESN'T WANT to lay off anyone, but has to. This indicates that the company is unprofitable without government help.

You are assuming, Imran. It may be the case that you are correct, but you do not know that. It may be that the manager simply knows he has 1500 more employees than he really needs to get the job done. If the company is privatised the owners will demand that extra workers be gotten rid of, not because they are going bankrupt, but because those 1500 salaries could be profit instead. The profit of the owner is moer important than the lives of the workers and their families.

Now, as to your assumption that the company needs government help . . . this is an oil company, in Iraq, where vast majority of government revenue comes from oil. The oil operations in Iraq subsidize the government, not the other way around.

	18-12-2003 04:52									#56
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quote: Oh, so you mean all those demonstrations LoTM always starts post about should have been cracked down with? I mean, they were popualr protest of one sort or another. Or those huge Shia rallies-obviously the US should have gone in shooting! And all those rallies by Sadr..subversionists! If you say all rallies should be banned for the sakes of security, next time LoTM brings up some rally about protesting violence, make sure to chime in and denounce those bastards undermining order and helping the terrorists.

Rallies pro-state and rallies which are anti-state are two different animals and you know that . I did say popular PROTEST acts, by which I meant against the state, especially those with the propensity to turn violent against the police there.

	18-12-2003 04:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Absolutely not. I'm not sure about Germany, but unions were actively fostered in Japan. These were New Dealers that ran the occupation gov't's. It was only later , the mid-50's IIRC, that anti-union laws were created .

Hitler took control of the unions just like he did everything else.

	18-12-2003 04:54									#58
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quote: Now, as to your assumption that the company needs government help . . . this is an oil company, in Iraq, where vast majority of government revenue comes from oil. The oil operations in Iraq subsidize the government, not the other way around.

It is one oil refinery in a country with many of these refineries. Set them all loose, and I'm sure some of them may be clamoring for government help.

	18-12-2003 04:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Hitler took control of the unions just like he did everything else.

He's talking about after the war

	18-12-2003 04:55									#60
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Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Norway.