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Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 18-12-2003 02:37 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Labor Rights in Iraq Redux Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

An interesting article on labor and privatization in Iraq: http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=9408

Most interesting snippets:

quote:
Iraqi workers look at the prospect of privatization with dread. Dathar Al-Kashab, manager of Baghdad's Al Daura oil refinery, predicted that privatization would have an enormous effect. "A worker starting here today has a job for life, under the old system," he explains, "and there's no law which permits me to lay him off. But if I put on the hat of privatization, I'll have to fire 1500 [of the refinery's 3000] workers. In America when a company lays people off, there's unemployment insurance, and they won't die from hunger. If I dismiss employees now, I'm killing them and their families.


quote:
In 1987, Saddam had another unpleasant surprise for Iraqi workers. He issued a law declaring that the class struggle was over. Workers in state-owned enterprises were no longer to be considered workers at all, but civil servants. As such, Saddam said, they had no right to organize unions or bargain. On the Umm Qasr docks and in factories and refineries throughout the country, unions were effectively banned.

Anti-Union Law Upheld by Occupation

Today that 1987 law is still being enforced by the US occupation authority. The law affects workers employed in the enterprises set to be privatized, and that is why it hasn't been repealed as hundreds of other Saddam-era laws have been. If those workers have no legal union, no right to bargain, and no contracts, then privatization and the huge job losses that will come with it, will face much less organized resistance.

On June 5 CPA head Paul Bremer put another weapon into the anti-union arsenal. He issued a decree called Public Notice Number One, prohibiting "pronouncements and material that incite civil disorder, rioting or damage to property." The phrase can easily be interpreted to mean strikes or other organized labor protest. Those who violate the decree "will be subject to immediate detention by Coalition security forces and held as a security internee under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949" - in other words, as a prisoner of war.

US occupation forces in Iraq escalated their efforts to paralyze Iraq's new labor unions on December 6, when soldiers arrested eight members of [an umbrella labor group's, the Workers Democratic Trade Union Federation's,] executive board, and took them into detention. Although the eight were released the following day, there was no explanation from the Coalition Provisional Authority.


As some of y'all might remember, a couple months ago I posted an article about leaders and members of the Union of the Unemployed being detained. Looks like the practice is continuing.

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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 02:40
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Obviously Ramo unions are a baathist plot against the occupation!

Obviously this is a travesty: and sadly you are the only one that seems to care. Don't expect much from this group.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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quote:
Iraqi workers look at the prospect of privatization with dread. Dathar Al-Kashab, manager of Baghdad's Al Daura oil refinery, predicted that privatization would have an enormous effect. "A worker starting here today has a job for life, under the old system," he explains, "and there's no law which permits me to lay him off. But if I put on the hat of privatization, I'll have to fire 1500 [of the refinery's 3000] workers.


My god... you mean they'd have to get efficient... *gasp*

quote:
Don't expect much from this group.


Nope. Get everything nice and safe first and then worry about allowing unions to organize. That's all that is needed, a few paralyzing strikes while we are attempting to build the country up.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 02:51 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Yeah, I probably should've included some article about a pro-American demonstration in Iraq in the post. Or another picture of a disheveled Saddam.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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Dec 2000
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 02:55
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i care and the saddam law should be repealed. I presume the Iraqi Communist Party, among others is taking the lead.

but this "On June 5 CPA head Paul Bremer put another weapon into the anti-union arsenal. He issued a decree called Public Notice Number One, prohibiting "pronouncements and material that incite civil disorder, rioting or damage to property." The phrase can easily be interpreted to mean strikes or other organized labor protest." is twisting something out of context - it sounds more like a measure against sabotage, and as such is quite reasonable. If its being abused Id like to hear about it. Your source provides no evidence that it is.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Nope. Get everything nice and safe first and then worry about allowing unions to organize. That's all that is needed, a few paralyzing strikes while we are attempting to build the country up.


How is creating an army of the unemployed making things safe? It would be better to allow them to strike (I think it's unlikely that they would), than to fire them.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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quote:
My god... you mean they'd have to get efficient... *gasp*


With unemployment at over 50% in much of the country, efficiency isn't quite as important as employment. It's either that or starvation.

quote:
Nope. Get everything nice and safe first and then worry about allowing unions to organize.


While people starve en masse. Yeah, that's the ticket.

quote:
That's all that is needed, a few paralyzing strikes while we are attempting to build the country up.


Unions are an important part of civil society, particularly in a developing one. Worker organization (or the lack thereof) will be what says whether Iraq's going to degenerate into a civil war. They need something to give people - whether Sunni or Shia, whether Arab or Kurdish - a stake in the country and food in their families' mouths.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 18-12-2003 03:07
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quote:
How is creating an army of the unemployed making things safe?


You do it for a short period in order to make the country's businesses solvent. Should the businesses suck at the teat of the government and continue being incredibly inefficient just so we can give them jobs. Blah... and I thought you were against corporate welfare.

quote:
With unemployment at over 50% in much of the country, efficiency isn't quite as important as employment. It's either that or starvation.


So the businesses can loose money hand over fist and then whole plants will have to close? Yeah, that makes things better.

quote:
While people starve en masse. Yeah, that's the ticket.


You'd have to think I care.

quote:
Worker organization (or the lack thereof) will be what says whether Iraq's going to degenerate into a civil war.


Yeah, more worker organization will lead to civil war as the country is paralyzed by strikes. At this point in time it doesn't need that.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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quote:
but this "On June 5 CPA head Paul Bremer put another weapon into the anti-union arsenal. He issued a decree called Public Notice Number One, prohibiting "pronouncements and material that incite civil disorder, rioting or damage to property." The phrase can easily be interpreted to mean strikes or other organized labor protest." is twisting something out of context - it sounds more like a measure against sabotage, and as such is quite reasonable. If its being abused Id like to hear about it. Your source provides no evidence that it is.


How do you think these sorts of laws usually work? They generally don't say "calling for strikes is illegal." Even we have a much more intricate anti-striking law with Taft-Hartley - using court injunctions and whatnot.

The proclamation was intended to tie into attacking worker organization:
quote:
Again, the ghost of the 1987 anti-Union Ba’athist law which exterminated workers, turning them all into ‘civil servants state employees, persists unchanged. Communiques on management pinboards remind workers that the CPA (Under their Public Notice on Organisation in the Workplace issued June 6 which states that the ‘CPA respects Iraqi Law’, especially worker repressing Ba’athist regime law, and has therefore not changed any laws regarding labour legislation.

http://www.labournet.net/world/0312/iraqtu2.html

Last edited by Ramo on 18-12-2003 at 03:21

Ramo is offline Ramo
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So the businesses can loose money hand over fist and then whole plants will have to close? Yeah, that makes things better.


They were still running after we took 'em over from Saddam.

quote:
You'd have to think I care.


I didn't know you had fascist tendencies.

quote:
Yeah, more worker organization will lead to civil war as the country is paralyzed by strikes. At this point in time it doesn't need that.


That's absurd. The people are paralyzed by unemployement at the moment.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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The country's businesses were solvent until the war and embargo. The Iraqis need a general strike against privatisation.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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They need a general strike for a lot of things - democracy, a more just contracting process, etc.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
How is creating an army of the unemployed making things safe?


You do it for a short period in order to make the country's businesses solvent.

You said it was suppose to make things safe. That's what I commented on.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Should the businesses suck at the teat of the government and continue being incredibly inefficient just so we can give them jobs.

The primary goal should be employment. Any policy that is in conflict with that goal will have negative consequences with order in Iraq.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Blah... and I thought you were against corporate welfare.

Of course I'm against it when it's a simple form of corruption, but not when the end is employment in an economy in desperate need of it.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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For democracy, I'd like to see the head Ayatollah simply tell his followers to refuse to cooperate with the provisional government plan. If 80% of the country refuses to send delegates, there is no way it could possibly function.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 03:31
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efficiency? what's efficient about corporate CEO's stealing millions from investors, getting golden parachutes for driving a company into financial ruin, gutting a workforce which erodes consumer base...

things are getting worse... I read today that there is a draft ready for a Central American Free Trade zone.... WHOOPY Multinational corporations win! everyone else loses.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Sistani said he'd give the US another year for democracy to come till he'd advocate active opposition to the CPA's gov't.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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quote:
They were still running after we took 'em over from Saddam.


Yeah, and the revenues coming into the Iraqi government's coffers has diminished greatly.

quote:
I didn't know you had fascist tendencies.


Getting close to Godwin's Law . If that's what you want to call it, go ahead. I wonder if you'd say Berzerker has fascist tendancies as well?

And Lenin as well? After all it's merely a different way of saying 'to make an omelet you have to break some eggs'.

quote:
The people are paralyzed by unemployement at the moment.


And a union would help by? So then they can strike and still not make any money, while causing a civil disturbance?

quote:
The primary goal should be employment.


And what do you do with state owned enterprises who aren't getting the same money because the change in government has resulted in less government revenue because of the disorder that came after it?

Ramo is offline Ramo
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quote:
Getting close to Godwin's Law . If that's what you want to call it, go ahead. I wonder if you'd say Berzerker has fascist tendancies as well?


I don't recall Berzerker every saying that he'd want to prohibit unions or striking.

quote:
And a union would help by?


Pressuring the gov't into not throwing away Iraqi jobs, not importing foreign workers, giving Iraqis reconstruction contracts, giving workers higher wages, not selling off all state-owned industries to foreign corporations, etc.

quote:
And what do you do with state owned enterprises who aren't getting the same money because the change in government has resulted in less government revenue because of the disorder that came after it?


If the business is so unprofitable, what difference does it make if its employees strike? Why can't the gov't just sell it to the highest bidder since it's not bringing in any revenue.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
The people are paralyzed by unemployement at the moment.


And a union would help by? So then they can strike and still not make any money, while causing a civil disturbance?

This is no time to be a tight ass. We need people to be happy and we need them to circulate money. If they strike it's because you are ****ing up.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
The primary goal should be employment.


And what do you do with state owned enterprises who aren't getting the same money because the change in government has resulted in less government revenue because of the disorder that came after it?


Screw govt revenue. This is no time to worry about that.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 04:02
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The main purpose of unions is not to organize strikes, particularly when the unemployment rate is as hight as it is currently in Irak; they are many other lines of action. And an organized workforce is more efficient than a mob. The US should not forget that unions are a common feature of democracies.

In addition, if the workers are loosing the protection of the lifelong employment, it is clear that they need an alternative shield. The US have no intention to create sweatshops in Irak.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Should it be any surprise that a government a hostile to labor s we have is supressing it abroad.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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quote:
Pressuring the gov't into not throwing away Iraqi jobs, not importing foreign workers, giving Iraqis reconstruction contracts, giving workers higher wages, not selling off all state-owned industries to foreign corporations, etc.


While generally causing a disturbance, which is not needed right now while dealing with terrorisms.

quote:
Why can't the gov't just sell it to the highest bidder since it's not bringing in any revenue.


Isn't this what they are doing and what you are arguing against?

quote:
Screw govt revenue. This is no time to worry about that.


When is? When they go bankrupt?

quote:
The US should not forget that unions are a common feature of democracies.


That's one of the main problems with this line of argument. There is no democracy yet. Let's wait until we get a working government in Iraq before we bestow union rights.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
While generally causing a disturbance, which is not needed right now while dealing with terrorisms.


All that shooting into the sky after Saddam was caught-that was a bunch of disturbances. I don;t think the occupaiton forces took a swift hand in ending them though..

quote:

When is? When they go bankrupt?


How would allowing workers to unionize make the country go bankrupt? what you have failed utterly to argue Imran is that a law barring public sector unions is the sort of thing a democracy, which is in theory what we are trying to create in Iraq, should do.

quote:

That's one of the main problems with this line of argument. There is no democracy yet. Let's wait until we get a working government in Iraq before we bestow union rights.


Why? Won;t the first batch of workers have to sign contracts from the outset? What will be thr righst of these workers?

Agathon is offline Agathon
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
For democracy, I'd like to see the head Ayatollah simply tell his followers to refuse to cooperate with the provisional government plan. If 80% of the country refuses to send delegates, there is no way it could possibly function.


Maybe they should do a Ghandi or an MLK.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[
quote:
The US should not forget that unions are a common feature of democracies.


That's one of the main problems with this line of argument. There is no democracy yet. Let's wait until we get a working government in Iraq before we bestow union rights.


It is easy to suspend instead of forbidding, then to start the discussion about the organization of the future unions. I understand that the US are not perfectly credible in their intents, they have to prove every day that they want really to help. They dont like it, but they have to.

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quote:
All that shooting into the sky after Saddam was caught-that was a bunch of disturbances.


If union protests lasted as long as that shooting then I'd be for it. But they don't .

quote:
How would allowing workers to unionize make the country go bankrupt?


I never said it would. Kid said screw gov't revenue and that this is no time to worry about that. I think not worrying about gov't revenue would lead to bankrupcy.

quote:
a law barring public sector unions is the sort of thing a democracy, which is in theory what we are trying to create in Iraq, should do.


But there is no democracy in Iraq yet. When things become well enough pacified to have a functioning democracy in Iraq, then unions can come back into the picture.

quote:
What will be thr righst of these workers?


We'll have to wait until the Constitution gets passed to find out, won't we?

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 18-12-2003 04:18
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This, of course, raises a very interesting side debate about workers' rights in socialist societies.

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quote:
While generally causing a disturbance, which is not needed right now while dealing with terrorisms.


Well these "disturbances" might be too ****ing bad for us, but Iraqis have to eat too.

quote:
Isn't this what they are doing and what you are arguing against?


You misunderstood. If these industries are totally unprofitable, unions would be no threat to privatization. So, why would there be laws agains them?

quote:
That's one of the main problems with this line of argument. There is no democracy yet. Let's wait until we get a working government in Iraq before we bestow union rights.


Unions are a common factor in pre-democratic societies. Look at France, the German states, the Italian states, Spain, etc., etc. They are the basis of democracy, and in fact they are the basest form of democracy. Rebuilding a totalitarian society starts with rebuilding worker organization. See how the New Dealers dealt with a place like Japan. Unfortunatly, our gov't is extremely hostile to unions unlike the New Dealers so that isn't happening.

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I wonder what the AFL-CIO's take on all this is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
When is? When they go bankrupt?


There is no Iraqi govt to go bankrupt

 
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