Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > The Guardian: Israel planned raid to kill Saddam
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
Post  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
The Guardian: Israel planned raid to kill Saddam Got spare money?

quote:

Israel planned raid to kill Saddam


Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Wednesday December 17, 2003
The Guardian

Israeli commandos planned to assassinate Saddam Hussein with "smart" missiles that would hit him as he stood in a crowd at a relative's funeral in his home town of Tikrit, it emerged yesterday.

The extraordinary proposal involved soldiers flying deep into Iraq and using the customised missiles.

The top-secret assassination plot, which was codenamed Bramble Bush and was closely monitored by Yitzhak Rabin, the then Israeli prime minister, was abandoned when a trial run went wrong and five Israeli soldiers were killed.

The plan was devised in revenge for Saddam's missile attacks on Israel during the first Gulf war. The Israeli military censor decided to lift a ban revealing details of the 1992 operation after the arrest of the former Iraqi leader on Sunday.

Sensitivity about the plan was so acute that when the Guardian reported details of the accident involving the soldiers in 1992, the paper's then Middle East correspondent, Ian Black had his press credentials withdrawn by the Israeli government.

Using information from sources in Iraq and the Iraqi media, Nadav Zeevi, who was in charge of gathering intelligence for the operation, had to work out a pattern of Saddam's movements.

At the time, the Iraqi leader was using body doubles and was constantly changing his routine. "After the war he felt much more wanted and hunted, as if he smelled that we were on his trail, and simply vanished," Mr Zeevi told the Israeli daily, Yedioth Ahronoth.

Mr Zeevi and his team struggled to work out where they expected the real Saddam Hussein to go. They had thought that he would visit his mistresses, but it transpired that sometimes his body doubles would go instead.

A breakthrough seemed to come when Saddam's uncle, Tilfah fell ill. Tilfah had raised Saddam as a boy and held a senior position in the government. It was obvious that Saddam would visit him in person and would certainly go to his funeral at the family cemetery in Tikrit.

The Israelis were right - when the funeral did take place Saddam did go in person. But by that stage the operation had been aborted.

Various assassination proposals had been considered by the Sayerat Matkal (General Staff Reconnaisance Unit), Israel's SAS. The leadership of the army wanted a glamorous commando raid rather than an air strike.

Ephraim Sneh, a member of the Knesset's foreign affairs and defence committee in 1992, confirmed the army was preparing to kill Saddam and said Mr Rabin had ordered the operation. "The credit should be given to the prime minister because it was his courage to approve this operation. Like in Entebbe and other daring operations, it was Rabin who took this decision," he said, referring to an Israeli commando raid to free hostages in 1976.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Interesting, yet pointless.

cyclotron7 is offline cyclotron7
King
Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Did they really think that, if it had succeeded, it would have been worth the intense negative press of shooting missiles into a crowd of funeral mourners?

I mean, killing Saddam from afar doesn't seem like it would affect a big change in the regime, you'd just see one of his sons take the job instead.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Do you really need to ask if the IDF would take into account possible civilians casualties when thinking of taking out a high value target like Saddam?

cyclotron7 is offline cyclotron7
King
Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I know very well what they probably would do; that's obvious. I'm just questioning the usefulness of it.

It seems like the assassination of a terrorist leader at least is something that might, in some sense, help with security; they are nuts if they think that killing the leader of an Arab state would help them with anything. Too much revenge and too little sense.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Did they really think that, if it had succeeded, it would have been worth the intense negative press of shooting missiles into a crowd of funeral mourners?

Ah, but would have only killed Saddam, I hope.

Would you justify an attack on a clear evil person (such as hitler) if he was in the middle of a crowd (assumingly, his evil relatives)?

Btw, when talking about Saddam, IIRC this Tilfah taught him everything evil he needed to know, when he grew him up as a kid. He was a bastard. (I think i saw this on the history channel)

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Do you really need to ask if the IDF would take into account possible civilians casualties when thinking of taking out a high value target like Saddam?

Hey, don't confuse us with Americans.

We didn't intend to just drop a huge bomb on the entire place.

It was a 'smart' small missile, that was supposed to find saddam, and saddam only, and kill him. now obviously it would have hurt some of his body guards, but not much more.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Would you justify an attack on a clear evil person (such as hitler) if he was in the middle of a crowd (assumingly, his evil relatives)?


No. But of course, the question is so vague and irrespective of reality that I won't take the time to give a full answer.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
Do you really need to ask if the IDF would take into account possible civilians casualties when thinking of taking out a high value target like Saddam?

Hey, don't confuse us with Americans.

We didn't intend to just drop a huge bomb on the entire place.

It was a 'smart' small missile, that was supposed to find saddam, and saddam only, and kill him. now obviously it would have hurt some of his body guards, but not much more.


The only missile 'smart' enough to do so would be an aimed bullet. I have never heard of any smart missiles with tiny, tiny warheads.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 03:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

ok.

If you know that you have a small and percise missile that can take out saddam, and probably only a few of his body guards, and you consider him a serious threat on your small country, would you have used it?

remember that in 1992, everyone still remembered and knew for sure that saddam had a nuclear program, and chemical weapons.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
he only missile 'smart' enough to do so would be an aimed bullet. I have never heard of any smart missiles with tiny, tiny warheads.

This is the Israeli Sayeret Matkal you are talking about.
They build unqiue weapons for themselves when the job requires. This weapon was very unique, and had been built especially for the assignment. I think it was based on an anti-tank type missile, but with a unique guidance system and a unique charge.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov

It was a 'smart' small missile, that was supposed to find saddam, and saddam only, and kill him. now obviously it would have hurt some of his body guards, but not much more.



and just how, exactly, does the missle track a particular person?

cyclotron7 is offline cyclotron7
King
Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Siro, with Hitler you had kind of a monolithic evil, if you will. Nobody but the Germans and Italians would have mourned his death.

With Saddam, not only would he probably be quickly replaced by his equally depraved sons, but Israel would have reaped the considerable rage of all the other Arab nations who would probably see in Saddam's death their own at the hand of the Sayerat Matkal. Israel has done a lot of things to make people angry before, sometimes very angry, but if you actually assassinated a head of state you would be in deeper worldwide **** than ever before.

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:

The commandos would set up a few miles from the cemetery and fire two specially designed missiles that would home in on Saddam, who wore a lighter-colored military uniform than other soldiers. The custom-made missiles were named "Obelisk," the paper said.


link

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:13 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
Did they really think that, if it had succeeded, it would have been worth the intense negative press of shooting missiles into a crowd of funeral mourners?

Ah, but would have only killed Saddam, I hope.


Like those bombs Israel uses in the Territories?

Seriously, it's too bad they didn't follow through. It woulda saved a lot of lives.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
and just how, exactly, does the missle track a particular person?

i remember hearing how the guidance system generally worked, but i don't remember how i got hold of that information, so i'd rather not talk about.

i think it's not very much more complicated than the usual new fire and forget guidance technology.

plus you'd be surprised what a lot of ingenuity and a dedicated team of engineers can do.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Some how, an article in the Guardian that says the codename was 'Bramble Bush', sounds like it came from the onion, or SNL.

Space05us is offline Space05us
King

Nov 2001
time: 17:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 04:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

you would kill a man at a funeral, and put innocent people at risk just because of relation. you lack the set which men value most.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 06:43
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

The problem I have with this is that it reminds me too much of Bill Clinton shooting 75 missiles at Osama bin Laden.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 07:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

dp

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 07:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is copied from my PWS! Damn it Siro, did you leak this? I'll take it out of your pay man! Concentrate!

Zevico is offline Zevico
Chieftain
Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 17:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
you would kill a man at a funeral, and put innocent people at risk just because of relation. you lack the set which men value most.

Spaceus, you think that the people who planned this were unprincipled. This may be true; yet you may not judge these people unless you were to also judge the actions of every single other government in the world in a similar manner, including yours, which has considered and done (and in the eyes of some, continues to do) things much worse than this plan.
As such, either every country in the world has lost these values you speak of, or this is a case where things do not run as black and white as you imply.
Also, consider the fact that Saddam supported at the time, and did until the downfall of his government, killed thousands-perhaps more than hundreds of thousands-perhaps even in the millions (as some of the interim government council suggest) of people. He did this with the knowledge of no doubt the large majority of the people who had attended this funeral, and no doubt this same large majority had comitted these acts, as Saddam had always preferred his Clan and family during his government and kept some of them in high positions.

Last edited by Zevico on 19-12-2003 at 17:31

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 17:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It takes time to reach the western press, I see. This was on the news in sunday, wasn't it?

anyway, the headline isn't precise. There was a plan to kill him. but it was far from certain to be executed.

quote:
you would kill a man at a funeral, and put innocent people at risk just because of relation. you lack the set which men value most.

I guess then you think that the US Army is a bunch of evil morons, right?

Eli is offline Eli
Emperor
Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 19:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bramble Bush?! Ah... so it's "Siah Eted". I was certain it's "Sheikh Eted". Stupid newspapers.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 19-12-2003 19:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sheikh Atad....

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 20-12-2003 04:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Like those bombs Israel uses in the Territories?


I knew someone would bring this up.

But seriously, you can't employ a super exclusive spec-ops team, just to kill a medium (when compared to saddam) target.

But not to be mistaken - Salah Shehadeh was responsible for over a 100 Israeli casualties who died as a result of terracts he directed.

IIRC the assumption was that the building he was in was empty.


It is my personal theory, that a 1 ton bomb charge was used, in order to send a message to Hamas. Saleh Shehadeh was recently responsible for a failed attempt to put a 1 ton bomb under one of Israel's new sky scrapers.


But getting back to facts - Israel later used only 500Kg (iirc) on Sheik Yassin, and failed to kill him. IIRC no one died in that attack. Only several injured.

Chemical Ollie is offline Chemical Ollie
Prince
Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:32
  Old Post 20-12-2003 05:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

This is old news, not only because it's more than 10 years old. Anyway, shooting live ammo when you are supposed to shoot blanks must automatically qualify for a Darwin award, right???

Not that I would complain about the mission, though.

Mr. President is offline Mr. President
Emperor
The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:32
  Old Post 20-12-2003 11:27 Visit Mr. President's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Osweld



and just how, exactly, does the missle track a particular person?


I saw on TV that you can "paint" a person or object with a laser beam and then fire a specially-modified bullet which will go directly to the painted person or object.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 20-12-2003 11:31 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
It takes time to reach the western press, I see. This was on the news in sunday, wasn't it?

anyway, the headline isn't precise. There was a plan to kill him. but it was far from certain to be executed.


They only called it off because they ****ed up and killed 5 of themselves during training, or at least that was the impression given by the story I read a few days ago.

BTW, when was the last time a country assassinated another country's leader (that we have actual evidence of, please)?

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 20-12-2003 11:42
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Emissions guidance for human tracking.

 
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32.
Apolyton Time is 00:32.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0595 seconds (92.22% PHP - 7.78% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net