19-12-2003 08:20									#1
	Why bribe? Just defend like a diplomat! Remove this text

In the most recent OCC #4 game, a barb frigate snuggled up next to my city in 1420 AD. At that time, it was only manned by a diplomat and I was lacking enough time or gold to welcome the invaders with a better defense, or so I thought.

Attached is what I thought was going to be the final save made in the game. I almost didn’t even bother to hit enter for the next turn, but when I finally did I was very much surprised to see my diplomat not even break a sweat, while defeating 3 barb crusaders in a very convincing fashion.

This game was being played with Civ II MGE, so I’m afraid that 2.42 users will not be able to load the save and see for themselves. In fact, diplomats may not be able to defend as well in 2.42, or in other situations.

This was not the first attack on my city, which had been hit early on by a barb horseman, when it was defended successfully with an archer and warrior.

This particular diplomat had bribed two barb crusaders who had landed near my city on an earlier turn during that game, so it did have a “history” of success vs. barbs.

The fact that it was my only city, or that it was my capital, may also factor into why this diplomat defended so well.

I know we all have experienced how poorly barb diplomats defend. If they can be reached, they almost always die when attacked, which is why I have never tried to defend a city with just a diplomat before, but in this situation I had no choice and ended up completely surprised by the outcome.

What is the experience of other players?

Could it be that the best defender for a city is just a single diplomat?

I have seen other weirdness at times when using diplomats, like the time when one opened a hut. A team of barbs appeared around the diplomat and they just ran away! However, this was an exception to what generally happens when tipping barbs from huts using diplomats.

Attachment: diplo.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	19-12-2003 08:55									#2
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Mercy! I would be afraid to try this.

	19-12-2003 09:28									#3
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Hey Solo, Happy Holidays!!

I could be badly misremembering this but I believe you are immune from losing your ONE city to barbs if any unit is there to defend. A dip would not fare so well against the AI of course.

It didn't seem to matter if the dip was unfortified either. And the dip became a vet every time. Remove the dip and the city falls.

Monk

	19-12-2003 09:42									#4
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Well, now I've seen everything. I know something about Civ2 that solo doesn't. Who woulda thunk it??

If you have one city only, any single defender in it is invulnerable to barbarian attack. I have heard reports of barbarian Cavalry being defeated repeatedly by a defending Caravan.

I'm not sure, but I suspect that if you have 2 units in the city, only the last remaining defender is invulnerable to barbs. And the invulnerability does NOT, of course, extend to AI attacks...

	19-12-2003 13:27									#5
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What he said

although I believe the invulnerability disregards number of 'defenders'

Stu

	19-12-2003 15:06									#6
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What Stu said as well.

If I'm desperate for shields in an OCC, then I'll quite happily disband any units in the city that are not required for happiness. In the representative governments, I'll go with just camels to defend my city, in the belief that my diplomacy ought to be able to sort out any potential threats before they arrive (give them what they ask for ). Obviously once the ship goes up, then I'll be rushing stealths and mechs like nobody's business, but until then war is not the OCCer's friend - no matter what benefits you might get from your allies.

	19-12-2003 20:27									#7
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The one city thing sounds right and rings a bell, now that you all have reminded me!

I think I will test this a little further in future games, just to see what happens. It may be that one's capital gets special defense, even if there is more than one city.

Happy holidays to all, and good to see Monk again as an active participant.

	19-12-2003 20:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by solo The one city thing sounds right and rings a bell, now that you all have reminded me! I think I will test this a little further in future games, just to see what happens. It may be that one's capital gets special defense, even if there is more than one city. Happy holidays to all, and good to see Monk again as an active participant.

I think you'll find that after the second city, this special immunity is gone.

I have an assistant who reads the posts and types for me so my participation is limited to meddling for now. Hope to be able to play again someday. Amazing how meaningful to me this community has become.

Monk

	19-12-2003 21:03									#9
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A round of applause for Monk's assistant then!

Thanks for giving Monk the chance to stay here, and devoting so much of your time to something you might regard (but would never admit here) as a bit sad.

Monk is right, barb immunity only last while you have one city. I am not sure, though, whether you can regain your immunity if you get a second city and lose it again. Would the immunity be transferrable if your capital fell? Will I remember to bother testing these thigns when I get home tonight? Er, no.

	19-12-2003 22:03									#10
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One of our CfC posters (?Elephant?) suggested some time ago that there was a residual bonus while two cities were held and indeed that the 2nd city enjoyed a small bonus - but I don't recall this being verified...

	19-12-2003 22:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york A round of applause for Monk's assistant then! Thanks for giving Monk the chance to stay here, and devoting so much of your time to something you might regard (but would never admit here) as a bit sad.

I think I will not read this one to my client, duke.

FYI: the Monk is pretty much blind now and, although it won't happen tomorrow, he is dying. He mentioned this in previous posts. And for what it's worth, his upbeat enthusiasm makes this part of what I do for him not the least bit sad.

Thanks for the applause but please hold the sarcasm.

	20-12-2003 01:27									#12
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I am not the source of the 2nd city bonus rumor, but I can verify from repeated experience (and a few deep nail indents in my keyboard tray) the invulnerability of one-and-only city to Barb assault. I had an OCC city on a small, unoccupied island a while back which suffered one of those Barb "uprisings" where something like 30-40 units, mostly Rifle, Calvary and Artillery, came boiling out of the forests. I did not have Flight yet so could not bomb/strafe them into oblivion, and the gold ran out after the first couple of bribes. Needless to say, my meager defensive units (and Dips) went down like fleas (they were mostly pre-gunpowder anyway), but the last one held out for something like a dozen attacks until I "killed" the spawning spot (it was coastal) with a hastily-recalled Frigate.

Monk's assistant: Pardon our self-depredating humor. We are deeply grateful to you for helping bring our friend back into our "world". Please convey our respect to him for the effort he makes to continue being part of this rowdy forum. We continue to enjoy his postings.

	20-12-2003 07:37									#13
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blows dust from Tome of Ancient Civ Wisdom
Apparently this is a long lost nugget of wisdom! The conditions for invincible diplomat are:

1) he is the lone defender in
2) your lone city, and
3) you've never had any other cities, and
4) he is attacked by barbarians.

The AI will draw and quarter him, as will barbarians if any of the above does not apply.

	20-12-2003 20:10									#14
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fao - Assistant to Bloody Monk

May I take this opportunity to thank you for enabling our good friend Monk to continue his participation in this community. I had picked up the dark allusions in earlier posts, but had hoped that I had misunderstood.
I am often struck by the resemblance this community has to a religious order - all men of a certain age, sharing a common devotion (nay obsession).
Keep our Brother safe - and keep us informed of any changes, please ...

	20-12-2003 20:29									#15
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Stu,

You are correct about camels. In fact ANY unit will save the day with only one city. Settler, explorer, warrior ( -v- 2 or 3 Crooks, very impressive), even Cr Msl ( which, like dip has defense = zero) will work.

Anyone can test this for themselves using the diplo.sav. Disband the dip, cheat-create unit for any of these other units.

My assistant says to say thank you. Thank you!!

Monk

	21-12-2003 03:36									#16
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YEs, the one city has been know for awhile.
There has been condsiderable debate about two cities. I've seen some heroic defense from the second city, but nothing that has stood to the rigors of testing.

	21-12-2003 06:38									#17
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Does it make a difference if there are any NON Settlers running around? I can't imagine that it would, but if you lose your one city with a NON Settler still in existence, the game isn't over (well, not officially over ) and I am guessing that the invulnerable defender trick was intended to prevent early demises...

In rare games, I've tipped a hut and come up with barbarians before the second city was founded... in those games, I've sometimes delayed founding until the barb Archer/chariot was defeated.

	21-12-2003 22:03									#18
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STOYM,

I had a NON settler at the time, so I guess it makes no difference.

	22-12-2003 15:42									#19
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No, if you have a NON settler, then it's just like playing OCC. The barbs can't take your only city, no matter what the situation in OCC (as long as it's defended. ).

I was puzzled by the first rule in the four posted by Marquis, but I suppose that even if you have other units in the city, then the dip will have the lowest defence and automatically defend last. The only way you'll get a superdip is if you've only got one unit.

--------------------------------------------------------

Monk's assistant - I didn't intend to sound sarcastic.
That's the trouble with posting on forums like this - when I want to sound sarcastic it never works, and now I sound sarcastic when I had no intention of doing so.
Sorry if anyone took offence - Monk is a valued member of this community, and we value your efforts to keep him here most highly.

	28-12-2003 15:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by solo It may be that one's capital gets special defense, even if there is more than one city.

Solo, there is an ongoing defense bonus for the capital against barbarian attacks. In this thread are some results:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=84819

Zenon

	29-12-2003 01:31									#21
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Yep, that thread had many good points from both you, Zenon, and Elephant. And if I read it correctly, SlowThinker tested the 2nd city defense bonus as being ~ 2.5x for warrior -v- Barb Archer.

Monk

	30-12-2003 01:50									#22
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Just for the fun of going a bit off topic in this interesting thread : If I recall the AI has an overall bonus against barb, but what about the AI capitals ?
In the "scorched-earth" succession game, Barbs have captured very earlySamarkand (city of mongol ai civ) and landed a billion assault against Kakarokorum without any success.
Has anyone else taken notice

	30-12-2003 02:57									#23
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Julius,
If you look at that linked thread you will see I noticed that in my tests.

	30-12-2003 20:33									#24
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Thanks for the pointer to that excellent thread.

ST,

I am nearing your kind of city totals in EL #7, but have yet to try Xinning with disorder. You might like trying that game too if you are not too busy knocking off opponents in your new style of MP games.

Last edited by solo on 30-12-2003 at 21:05

	30-12-2003 22:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Julius, If you look at that linked thread you will see I noticed that in my tests.

Sorry
I didn't took time to follow the link
I wonder if the Apolyton community knows more about the game than the programmers themselves (considering they had split tasks)

	30-12-2003 22:44									#26
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I agree, Julius.

I also think the collective community effort has revealed the game to be far more than its creators ever dreamed. Perhaps the games' creation was overshadowed by a Divine Hand.

Monk

	07-01-2004 12:05									#27
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[aside to She Who Helps] I also took the darker hints to mean the loss of Civving. I'm glad that is clear now, and thank you for keeping the Monk going.

I'm sure the synergy of some features have been a surprise to team members who lurk in these and other fan forums.
It would be interesting if someone came up with a crack that stripped some of the benefits against barbs.

	07-01-2004 14:44									#28
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Noone has yet directly answered my question

I recall holding the one city with a number > 1 of camels - yes, I am confident that a camel will hold against infinite barbs - but as I read the above it is felt that only the last camel will do so - this conflicts with my memory ...

Stu

	07-01-2004 16:43									#29
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As far as I am concerned, and all Civ experience has shown me, then as long as you only have one city, and a guard of any kind, then the barbs are unable to take this city. If you have more than one guard, the barbs are unable to kill the first defender, or even to cause it any damage.

	07-01-2004 18:05									#30
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Agreed.