19-12-2003 21:06									#1
	Does the computer use siege units in Conquests? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I've only played PTW so far, and I am disappointed that the AI does not use siege units. Does it use them in C3C?

	19-12-2003 23:59									#2
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Not really.

I was in the open feild once and I moved a stack of units next to AI artillery. During the AI turn his arty did fire offensively on me.

	20-12-2003 00:14									#3
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Somewhat, they build em a little, but don't use them offensively.

	20-12-2003 02:45									#4
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Ive seen more AI Artillery units but they still seem to keep them holed up in their cities, and only seem to use them when I attack as a defensive strike.

I always end up capturing them and adding them to my stack so its pretty useless really.

	20-12-2003 04:16									#5
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About this whole ''AI not using arty in Civ3, at least offensively'' I've come to think with the time it's not so bad at all....For an experienced player, if the AI was able to march on one of his cities with a full defended stack including a good amount of artys, well for that experienced player they would be eventually captured too much easily ( strong defensive units move only 1 per turn; the player has all the time to react and using his own arty to weaken the AI stack, then cavalry units make the ultimate move for free additional artillery units ). In fact, if the AI was able to use too much of them offensively, it would probably lose them most of the time : perhaps the human player would count on this to collect enough units for his own campaign, thus avoiding the cost to build them. And I think the player should build them, like the vast majority of its military. Since the AI uses well non-land artys like planes, bombers, and vessels, I'm happy for now with the actual engine.

But they can improve this in Civ4...

	20-12-2003 06:20									#6
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The AI does 'attempt' to use ground artillery offensively now, but it's still pretty rare and to easy to beat the (usually single) defender and capture the unit.

It seems to me that the main problem with AI using artillery is that it uses terrain to the fullest with normal units (it will generally go for the mountain route when it can), but because wheeled war machines cannot enter mountains, the AI falls apart somewhat.

	20-12-2003 11:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Ive seen more AI Artillery units but they still seem to keep them holed up in their cities, and only seem to use them when I attack as a defensive strike. I always end up capturing them and adding them to my stack so its pretty useless really.

That has been my experience as well.

	20-12-2003 12:05									#8
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On OCCASION I have seen AI arty being used offensively, though seldom in the field.

I am really UPSET that the AI does not use arty offensively while hold up in cities! AI artillery in cities should be used EVERY turn if there is an enemy unit within range -- No IfAndOrButs!

	20-12-2003 12:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe On OCCASION I have seen AI arty being used offensively, though seldom in the field. I am really UPSET that the AI does not use arty offensively while hold up in cities! AI artillery in cities should be used EVERY turn if there is an enemy unit within range -- No IfAndOrButs!

agreed.

I do this all the time. I esp. did this in the ww2 scenario. I used my artillery on passing ships. Even if the ships posed no threat to any of my units. I still would bombard it just for the hell of it (it also disrupts them for a few turns while the ai heals their ship)

	21-12-2003 12:36									#10
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It uses an artillery unit on offense on occasion, but usually only one. The big difference between common human use and AI use is that the AI won't usea stack of 10+ artillery units, with appropriate defense, to lay siege to a city or a defensive position.

Catt

	22-12-2003 10:02									#11
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Indeed Catt. Perhaps a potential future fix for this in later games is to program the AI to set up stack types - a Cav stack, a slowmover attacker/defender stack and an arty/defender stack. These stacks could have a set number of units in them, and ensure the AI builds the complete stack before sending it out. Thus Arty would no longer be considered as another single unit to stick any old place as the AI does now.

On a slight OT here: When the AI captures your Arty (stop laughing - it doesn't happen all that often), does it disband most of them? I have seen this a few times (of course never very often... ), and seems to be rather counterproductive, unless of course you would be in a position to take them back soon. Although, if that were the case, there should be little chance of you losing the Arty in the first place, right?

	22-12-2003 13:35									#12
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never seen them disband them (perhaps when they captured yours it was too far away from their own cities- or on another continent from their cities).

But in my games they usually retreat the artys to their nearest city.

It does seem like it wouldn't be that hard to program the ai to form a task force.

Just 1 task force is all I ask for. A task force would consist of units stacked together consisting of several infantry, several fast moving units, and several bombarding units, and even stealth units if applicable. 2 or 3 task forces would be a little better as they could protect each border.

You script it so that the force stays together except when they have to attack. After attacking the task force should regroup to protect injuried units. If the stack starts getting too many injured units, then move to a safe location to heal- and use various individual units in the area to cover the retreat.

I also would like to see armie scripted in as well (properly that is- I've seen AI armies that were not "full")

And don't tell me this task force idea is impossible. I have seen the ai move their units in stacks in the Napoleon scenario. I almost **** a brick when I saw 4 stacks of 6 or 7 advanced infantry (not sure of the name, but the units had an attack of 6, defense of 6- no easy pickins) move through my territory. The stacks stayed together when moving.

This wouldn't be as much of a problem if units did not move into the enemy's square after winning a battle. The AI actually would have an easier time keeping their stacks together.

Sure the human could bypass the stack. But you could program it in that the ai just moves the stack adjacent to a human city and start attacking it. That will get their attention . In my games, I don't ignore large groups of units attacking my cities

	22-12-2003 15:13									#13
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I'm sure the AI could be programmed to make use of stacks and armies but I imagine it would then have to be linked to difficulty level. The reason is that, whilst most of the people who haunt these forums could cope with that and even enjoy the challenge, the majority of those who buy the game never come here, never get past chieftain/warlord and would die of fright if they saw the AI operate that way - so they would not buy the next version of civ.

	22-12-2003 18:13									#14
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I'm sure the AI could be programmed to make use of stacks and armies but I imagine it would then have to be linked to difficulty level. The reason is that, whilst most of the people who haunt these forums could cope with that and even enjoy the challenge, the majority of those who buy the game never come here, never get past chieftain/warlord and would die of fright if they saw the AI operate that way - so they would not buy the next version of civ.

True enough, I agree, and Civ3 has ALREADY one of the smartest AI of the TBS market, and offers the best challenge in my mind ( hey, Monarch is a good challenge for me on large maps, there's another 4 higher difficulty levels unplayable for the vast majority of civers, and I've beaten easily the highest settings of great classics such as Civ2, MoO2, SMAC, etc...)

	22-12-2003 20:45									#15
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While siege weapons are even more important in C3C I've rarely seen the ai use them. They primarily keep them in cities and benefit from their defensive fire.

In all the games I've played the ai has only used one artillery piece offensively against me. This was only because they captured it in a lightly defended fort and used the gun and fort against me.

What the ai does use relentlessly is bombers.

	23-12-2003 09:40									#16
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Most recently the AI has used Arty in cities to bombard my bombarding Destroyers. That's offensive use, I guess. Only thing - it's always just one Arty per city.

	23-12-2003 10:15									#17
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AI artillery being used against NAVAL targets has occured since PTW 1.21.

I DO wish they would use them offensively during their turn. Even if they never moved from their cities.

	23-12-2003 13:41									#18
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Whatever code they used to beef up the naval aspect of the game (i'm really impressed with the humongus fleets the AI pumps out) should be applied on the arty as a kind of transport (arty) escort (defense).

on a trial basis perhaps in the january patch to see how it works. If it doesn't work out, the feature can be taken out in the final part slated for later in 2004, if it works out, then good.

I'm sure there are ways for the human player to benefit from this. But my thinking is, as long as there is the threat the the AI can push bombard units offensively, it's going to make the human player's job tougher.

Assuming the AI knows how to use it properly and doesn't rush their artys into the open too quickly, but rather hide them in cities, on hills on their side of the border at the open of hostilities, it will still be quite a tough job for the human player to march a force large enough to capture those artys, especially if dealing with an evenly matched oppenent in terms of army size.

Perhaps a check AI can be implement such that the AI will tend to prefer have its arty following a lead stack rather than be part of an offensive stack itself.

Imagine the scenario where there are several SODs. The arty stacks (given their 2 tilt bombard) is a tile behind the offensive stacks surrounding the cities., giving cover fire to the offensive stacks. That'd be sweet. ..

Last edited by dexters on 23-12-2003 at 13:46

	23-12-2003 14:29									#19
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no it wouldn't. if the arty is beind the "main line", it cant act defensively in the stack.

it's all about the double use. hitting you on my turn, and hitting you again on yours. simply throwing 3 or 4 artillery into an offensive stack could be interesting.

i'm not looking for the AI to have a stack of 20 artillery and 4 infantry, all i'm looking for them to have some cannons in their assaults.

and in all seriousness, i wouldn't go around saying how easy it would be to program without knowing anything about the code itself. if it was really that easy, with few negative effects, soren or some other AI guru would have thrown it in, no?

	23-12-2003 14:53									#20
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1 or 2 artys used to soak up a human attack sounds like a good idea.

What I'm getting at though is that it's probably more interesting to have the AI hide its artys in stacks following the main offense to give it a chance to bombard your frontline forces, rather than being included in the mainstack.

But I think both has its merits.

	24-12-2003 11:37									#21
	Re: Does the computer use siege units in Conquests? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer I've only played PTW so far, and I am disappointed that the AI does not use siege units. Does it use them in C3C?

The AI had captured about 10 cannons from me. Did it use them? You bet and offensively! They pounded away on me turn after turn! Talk about piss me off too because I could not do anything about it.

	24-12-2003 12:59									#22
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perhaps we can mod the use ourselves with C3C and the 'flavors'.

just about everytime I have spys in a AI civ, I see that they will have really low amounts of artillery, while I'll easily have 5-6 times as much. Perhaps its just a build preference?

with flavors, and having each civ set to 'build artillery', they just might build more of it, although at the expense of other units... which might not all be that bad, considering how some AIs will have tons of naval transports on a pangea world (when they really don't need all of those transports).

	24-12-2003 13:01									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If they capture a stack of yours, they will blow the hell out of all the surrounding country side. I had that happen once. I still have nightmares about that game.

	25-12-2003 00:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If they capture a stack of yours, they will blow the hell out of all the surrounding country side. I had that happen once. I still have nightmares about that game.

So, what are we to do?? Any game we think is a shoe-in we "donate" several artillery to our enemy??

	25-12-2003 01:39									#25
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Play higher levels where the AI gets production advantages to make up for not being able to do everything else as well as a human can?

	25-12-2003 04:31									#26
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They still won't use the artillery.

AI will useully have some bombard units, I've seen as many as 14, but the key issue is to get them to move them out of their defensive stance to actually do some work.

	25-12-2003 11:03									#27
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I have to admit, I'm no fan of arty - but even i switch tactics and rack some up if the defensive odds start to turn on me. The whole reason why I won't use them to start with is because they're just WAAAAY to slow early on, and struggle to damage the city itself (yes, I am an evil sicko, I will do most things to keep the '5th column' down :P ). catapults and cannos simply do not keep pace with horsies and knights. But again...if I'm struggling in attacks...I'm gonna slow down the pace and arty is viable once more

This change of pace, THIS is what the AI should pick up. If you go air-power heavy in Starcraft, the AI will then beef up on air defences. Similarly, if the AI finds it loses stack wars, it should at least CONSIDER the arty option...

Oh, and the AI likes pinching badly protected arty. Sadly, it normally tries to carry it off...and then I smack it for the insult, take it back, THEN shoot it some more with the re-captured guns

	25-12-2003 13:37									#28
	Re: Re: Does the computer use siege units in Conquests? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz The AI had captured about 10 cannons from me. Did it use them? You bet and offensively! They pounded away on me turn after turn! Talk about piss me off too because I could not do anything about it.

More ammunition for my suggestion that the AI be programmed to bring a stack of offensive bombard units as a tag along to their offensive stacks. It seems like the AI knows how to use bombard units, it just never gets around to bringing them along in an attack.

3 or 4 stack of O units supported by strong D units showing out around a city (as the AI likes to do now) backed by another stack of artys/cannons further behind to bombard cities, roads, and units the human player place to blockade a path or a stack about to attack can, im sure, give players some heartache.

Taking out roads, rr connections and connections to luxuries and strategic resources alone could throw a major wrench into the human defensive strategies.

Will we adapt. I'm sure we will, but it will at least make dealing the AI's offensive more interesting.

I again make the suggestion that something like what was done with the AI navy be tried out with the bombard units. bombard(transport) + defense (esort) stacks that moves around instead of hiding in cities.