27-12-2003 21:25									#91
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Yet another really long and boring post about absolutely nothing.

If the thread starter was so concerned over this issue and convinced he was right, then why has he not returned to the debate ?

Only one answer really TROLL

	27-12-2003 23:24									#92
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ok, time to close this thread.

	28-12-2003 00:19									#93
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Yet another really long and boring post about absolutely nothing. If the thread starter was so concerned over this issue and convinced he was right, then why has he not returned to the debate ?

Maybe after hearing some of our replies he got scared off...

(unless he's a DL )

	05-01-2004 05:39									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen This thread is absolutely ridiculously pathetic. I find it totally despicable how some people find "racism" even in the most inoffensive things, case in point the Mesoamerican scenario. As a Mexican, I should have far more reason to complain if I found this scenario racist, and guess what? I don't. What is worse is that these dumb-ass PC idiots in their quest to make this world safe from bigotry and discrimination end up complaining about things that don't even correspond to their countries or culture. Tell me, those who think this scenario is racist: do you have indian blood in you? Are you a descendant of any of the cultures included in the Mesoamerica scenario? I thought not. -MZ

I shouldn't need to have "Indian blood" in me to care about the fate of Native American peoples or be Mexican to care enough about racism directed towards them. And why do you assume I am white? Simply because I made a post that appears "PC" to you? No, I do not consider myself an obnoxious liberal, and I assume you are dissapointed to hear this. I am just a normal guy concerned with the portrayal of non-European cultures in a game I enjoy playing. Is that so wrong?

	05-01-2004 05:46									#95
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And I am not a "troll" because I waited a week or two to reply to this thread. I do not check this site every day, as I have other things in my life to do.
I am sorry if I offended anyone by implying that the designers of this game are racist. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I know they rushed development. I admit that I am probably not right by saying that. To move on, there is still the issue of the unintended racism inherent in the game, or better worded by someone earlier, Eurocentrism. This is not a terrible concept, but just something we should ponder about. It definitely is not the correct way to view the world, but for a game that is apparently trying hard to make everyone happy, it is fine for now. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't try harder to make it more realistic.

	05-01-2004 05:51									#96
	Re: Re: Actually, Civ3 *is* racist... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Jeem If I were an Aztec, I'd be pretty proud that my race has survived in history, regardless of how they are seen. After all, it wouldn't be all that wrong for them to be a 'backward, barbarian' civ instead of 'agricultural, militaristic'. The Spanish probably thought so when it took them all of a month or two to destroy them. Fact is, they *were* backward and barbarian compared to a far superior foe.

Speaking of Eurocentrism...
Simply to call any culture "barbarians" is so wildly ignorant that I won't even go into it right now, unless someone would like me to try to sum it up.

	05-01-2004 08:22									#97
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Eurocentrism... DUH! Who do you think they're marketing to? Europeans and Americans!

quote: Simply to call any culture "barbarians" is so wildly ignorant that I won't even go into it right now, unless someone would like me to try to sum it up.

Actually, calling them "barbarians" is based on lack of ignorance (aka knowledge ) - they had a level of technology that was behind Europe by thousands of years.

	05-01-2004 09:38									#98
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I believe he may be refering to the fact that barbarian originally meant to the Greeks or Romans anyone who wasn't Greek or Roman (It may've been both, or only one of them, I can't remember.)

Anyways Metazoa's point is valid. I also found racist overtones in the Sword of the Shogun Scenario. Representing the Japanese leaders as colorful banners implies that every Japanese person is a colorful banner.

Just because some Japanese people happen to be colorful banners doesn't mean we should assume that a colorful banner can represent any Japanese person.

Edit: Aw. Went back through the thread and saw someone beat me to this point.

Last edited by Truman_Capote on 05-01-2004 at 09:46

	05-01-2004 09:55									#99
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Not another of these threads . . .

	05-01-2004 10:36									#100
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Actually, "barbarian" is derived from an derogatory term used by the (ancient) greeks to describe non-greek speaking peoples. Its based on the way those peoples were perceived to have talked ("bar-bar-bar").

So yes, it is an inherently racist term.

jon.

	05-01-2004 17:55									#101
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This is an idiotic topic.

But it gives me even more reason to *hate* those leaderheads. So much work went into such an utterly USELESS feature, that when it comes to making new scenarios, Firaxis is hesitant to replace their precious time drain with a custom BMP for the new civ. Whereas, if they had used regular pics for all the leaderheads instead of throwing away resources on making those ugly moving ones, it would be no big thing to just throw in a proper pic for the Olmecs, Burgundians, etc.

	05-01-2004 18:24									#102
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, calling them "barbarians" is based on lack of ignorance (aka knowledge ) - they had a level of technology that was behind Europe by thousands of years.

In the field technological applications of inventions, yes. But they were far more advanced in social sciences (e.g. agriculture, sewer systems, ...)

	05-01-2004 18:41									#103
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Europe had a tremendous technolgical advance in military terms, and one can say it's because of all those inventions used during the middle ages. This was a time of huge power struggles and it pushed technology in a military direction... many of the more scientific advances was obtained from the ancient Greece, Egypt and the Middle East. until Isaac Newton, europe was way behind in all other aspects of science. In the eyes of a chinese emperor europeans would be looked upon as barbarians because of their culture. It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

	05-01-2004 22:32									#104
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I'm basically with jkelly. But what I find quite extraordianry is the shrillness and volume of the of-course-it-isn't-racist camp. Huge offences are committed every day by people who think it just doesn't matter how other people are portrayed (and not only on a racist basis). Inthisd instance, someone at Firaxis might have thought that substituting one race for another might not be good enough. Judging by previous topics, if plucky little Belgium had cropped up in a scenario with an African leader head, we'd have had endless complaints about Belgian representation ((cf the why aren't the Portugeuse/Bulgarians/Samoans included?complaints when Civ 3 was first released). This is all arguably OT, but there are clearly some people out there who can't make a coherent case but rely on being able to shout down those with whom they disagree. Of course, this is all much more of a hot topic in the USA where institutional racism is deeply emebedded in a large part of the country (Shout now, guys!!!!!).

I wonder how jeem would have felt if his Socts had been included as a tribe, but represented on screen by, say, a Japanese face. Or how doea he feel when foreigners describe him to his face as English?

By the way, those backward barbaric Amerindians were wiped out by European germs, not European cultural superiority. A little grasp of history wouldn't hurt.

	05-01-2004 23:43									#105
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, calling them "barbarians" is based on lack of ignorance (aka knowledge ) - they had a level of technology that was behind Europe by thousands of years.

Ah yes, that is why when the Spanish reached Tenochtitlan their jaws dropped at seeing a city that was paradise compared to the rat-infested wrecks they called towns back in Europe. That is also why the Mayan calendar is actually more accurate than the one we use 500 years later.

	06-01-2004 00:01									#106
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For pities sake somebody close this thread

Have'nt any of you people got anything better to do ? Take this crap to the off topic forum!!

	06-01-2004 00:21									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Scriblerus Or how doea he feel when foreigners describe him to his face as English?

Would that be like calling a Canadian American ?

	06-01-2004 10:26									#108
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Hi i'm new... anyway...
To be honest, I didn't find the Mesoamerica scenario racist... but rather disappointing. Everybody has had their turm to complain, nows mine:
1. Mesoamerica is region that stretches roughly from Mexico to Honduras and El Salvador ... No S.America
2. The Toltecs are in the wrong spot... You can argue that accuracy wasn't a major concern, in that case you can read the developer diary thing
3. None of the wondersplashes show the buildings in their original painted glory
4. The leaderhead for Smokes and Pachakuti (well in 2nd age) shows the ruins of buildings... more appropriate for modern era, eh?
5. not being able to irrigate until "terrace farming"
6. Pacal did not invent Precolombian law and I had hoped Storytelling and body ornamentation were "given," c'mon we can train chimps to do that stuff...
7. Body ornamentation is the prereq for the pyramid of Kukulcan, why not something like calendrics and then why is the Inca's Palace a great wonder why not the Coricancha...?

Really racism is not a problem especially when you consider that these and more (im tired of typing) actually became issues. I'm sure all of you would regard it idiotic to put the English in Italy and then label the scenario for WWII in Pacific "war in Australia." Just because the game refers to Central America isn't an excuse to alittle reckless on a game which is kinda historical? Whatever, I respect the people who made the game and all (i was waiting for the Incas and Mayas since CIV2) and the sole pupose of the game is to have fun... so they succeeded in that aspect...

	06-01-2004 10:48									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Scriblerus By the way, those backward barbaric Amerindians were wiped out by European germs, not European cultural superiority. A little grasp of history wouldn't hurt.

You're true in this except that they weren't barbaric people.

You say "because they made sacrificed they're barbaric"?. Ok, now see the old world cultures... see in the Romans and the Colosseum... also slavery was "invented" by the old cultures first over there....


..so, they're not barbarians, just not yet developed in some social way.

	06-01-2004 11:03									#110
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Hi, and welcome to Apolyton.. let's see what I can answer over here...

quote: Originally posted by GrayAmphibian 1. Mesoamerica is region that stretches roughly from Mexico to Honduras and El Salvador ... No S.America

That's true. , so the new name for it could be... dunno.. " The Rise of the American Empires" ?, for saying somethig?

quote: 2. The Toltecs are in the wrong spot... You can argue that accuracy wasn't a major concern, in that case you can read the developer diary thing

I didn't know that...

quote: 3. None of the wondersplashes show the buildings in their original painted glory

And they're not shown in the City View screen!, just for lazyness!!

quote: 4. The leaderhead for Smokes and Pachakuti (well in 2nd age) shows the ruins of buildings... more appropriate for modern era, eh?

You can say that the buildings are on construction

quote: 5. not being able to irrigate until "terrace farming"

I disagree here. As you may know, jungles produce food as normal grasslands, and mountains also give you food... and the Terrace Farming was, AFAIK, the first system in this group of cultures that irrigated the lands.

quote: 6. Pacal did not invent Precolombian law and I had hoped Storytelling and body ornamentation were "given," c'mon we can train chimps to do that stuff...

Precolombian laws were invented by the ruler in charge or the first ones, sometimes . The Pacal thing is just for saying something. Storytelling and Body Orn. is "just to fill up" stuff.

quote: 7. Body ornamentation is the prereq for the pyramid of Kukulcan, why not something like calendrics and then why is the Inca's Palace a great wonder why not the Coricancha...?

Coricancha sounds good to me (I have visited it ), but remember it's a Temple, not a palace... and Firaxians look interesed in using palaces, so...

quote: Really racism is not a problem especially when you consider that these and more (im tired of typing) actually became issues. I'm sure all of you would regard it idiotic to put the English in Italy and then label the scenario for WWII in Pacific "war in Australia." Just because the game refers to Central America isn't an excuse to alittle reckless on a game which is kinda historical? Whatever, I respect the people who made the game and all (i was waiting for the Incas and Mayas since CIV2) and the sole pupose of the game is to have fun... so they succeeded in that aspect...

I was waiting for them as well, specially for the Incas, as you can think from my country flag

	06-01-2004 17:28									#111
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quote: Originally posted by The Slayer You're true in this except that they weren't barbaric people. You say "because they made sacrificed they're barbaric"?. Ok, now see the old world cultures... see in the Romans and the Colosseum... also slavery was "invented" by the old cultures first over there.... ..so, they're not barbarians, just not yet developed in some social way.

Sorry, I was quoting jeem's culturally determined verdict on them as backward and barbaric. I should have written "backward and barbaric" and added a big flag marked irony.

	07-01-2004 00:10									#112
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Shaka as a mesoamerican leader head? Appropriate. Also appropriate are asiatic leaders as mesoamerican leaderheads.

Why would I say this? Just search through surviving mesoamerican artwork and texts and you will find that physical features common to the African and Asiatic racial types to exist in the mesoamerican world. The only European traits deicted in mesoamerican texts or artwork are for those of diety figures.

I also consider myself to be of an 'affected culture' when it comes to racial issues. Being a white, American, middle class, educated person I am affected by racism everyday. If you don't think this is true then perhaps youshould reconsider what truly constitutes racism.

Finally though whether you want to believe or concoct racist over(under)tones in this game title... have fun. I firmly believe though that if the game designers were truly interested in giving a completed product they should have produced unique artwork for all of the represented cultures and units. Without doing that they have merely given us a very well done and customized but not complete scenario the likes of which any of us could produce and post on forums such as Apolyton for download.

The scenarios are fun and extemely well made, they just don't have the polish and finish they deserve.

	07-01-2004 00:31									#113
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Discrimination by itself is NOT racism. Racism is linked to economic and/or social dominance of one "racial" group in society over another. So, no, Rockit, you are not a victim of racism. As personally hurt as you may feel about being discriminated against, as a self-described "white, middle-class American" you are most definitely NOT affected by racism (unless, by "affected" you mean upset when you see people of colour discriminated against).

To bring this back to the thread.... exactly which "physical features" of Africans or Asians do you think are more representative of MesoAmerican people than those of Europeans? Skin colour? Hmm, interesting. Why fixate on that and not on, say, the "Roman" noses or some other superficial similarity?

I do agree with you on one thing, though: "The scenarios are fun and extemely well made, they just don't have the polish and finish they deserve."

jon.

	07-01-2004 01:43									#114
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Discrimination by itself is NOT racism. Racism is linked to economic and/or social dominance of one "racial" group in society over another. So, no, Rockit, you are not a victim of racism. As personally hurt as you may feel about being discriminated against, as a self-described "white, middle-class American" you are most definitely NOT affected by racism (unless, by "affected" you mean upset when you see people of colour discriminated against). To bring this back to the thread.... exactly which "physical features" of Africans or Asians do you think are more representative of MesoAmerican people than those of Europeans? Skin colour? Hmm, interesting. Why fixate on that and not on, say, the "Roman" noses or some other superficial similarity? I do agree with you on one thing, though: "The scenarios are fun and extemely well made, they just don't have the polish and finish they deserve." jon.

Thank you for the input and reply Jon. I'm in no way a 'victim' and I hope that I did not portray myself as feeling that way. I agree certainly with a distinct difference between discrimination and racism as present but there is also quite truly racism against whites in America. I want to make clear though that in no way do I wish to minimize or dismiss the racism that is exacted against those who are subjected to it. I apologize to anyone who may have been offended or affected by my words if other interpretations were apparent.

On the note of "physical features" of Africans and Asians present in anciet mesoamerican intertpretations such as art or literature pre-dating European invasion of these lands... perhaps these links will entertain or inspire further research. I don not purport them to be in part or entirety as fact. I have not completely checked them for 'biased' content but they are illustrative of typical examples arguing the point that mesoamerican cultures did or could have had African/Asian influences early on. And thus going back to my original point in this thread... African or Asian units and leader heads as a merely cosmetic choice for mesoamerican cultures in the game is not a huge stretch or racist in nature. Enjoy!

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

http://www.taiwaninfo.org/info/sino...5/605006e3.html

http://www.bjmjr.com/afromestizo/introduction.htm

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePar...recolumbia.html

http://www.theperspective.org/olmecs.html

	07-01-2004 04:15									#115
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Actually, "barbarian" is derived from an derogatory term used by the (ancient) greeks to describe non-greek speaking peoples. Its based on the way those peoples were perceived to have talked ("bar-bar-bar"). So yes, it is an inherently racist term. jon.

and the word "vaccine" comes from latin vacca, meaning cow (because of the cowpox/smallpox thing). Does that mean that vaccines are inherently "cowlike"?

Just because a word used to have a meaning doesn't mean it has that meaning today. In case you didn't notice, we don't use barbarian to mean "non-Greeks"

	07-01-2004 04:26									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ah yes, that is why when the Spanish reached Tenochtitlan their jaws dropped at seeing a city that was paradise compared to the rat-infested wrecks they called towns back in Europe. That is also why the Mayan calendar is actually more accurate than the one we use 500 years later.

Yup, you're right, those Aztecs so deserve to be Scientific

	07-01-2004 04:29									#117
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quote: By the way, those backward barbaric Amerindians were wiped out by European germs, not European cultural superiority. A little grasp of history wouldn't hurt.

Who's talking about culture? I'm talking about technology. And yes, I'd say that European technology at that time was FAR more advanced than Mesoamerican technology.

	07-01-2004 07:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Truman_Capote I believe he may be refering to the fact that barbarian originally meant to the Greeks or Romans anyone who wasn't Greek or Roman (It may've been both, or only one of them, I can't remember.) Anyways Metazoa's point is valid. I also found racist overtones in the Sword of the Shogun Scenario. Representing the Japanese leaders as colorful banners implies that every Japanese person is a colorful banner. Just because some Japanese people happen to be colorful banners doesn't mean we should assume that a colorful banner can represent any Japanese person. Edit: Aw. Went back through the thread and saw someone beat me to this point.

I was gonna stay away from this thread... but THIS is so funny it is sublime.

Truman Capote commenting on bias?

	07-01-2004 08:15									#119
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Considering that inferior military technology can cause your nation to lose, I would say that all other technologies are secondary to military or at least were.

	07-01-2004 08:33									#120
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Okay, I will say something really unoriginal: this thread is really kind of amusing... anyway, this is somewhat off topic...

Apart from the serpent shadow ascending/descending on the Kukulcan each equinox, the pyramid is aligned so that two of its corners point precisely at the winter and summer solstices. Recently scientists have begun to hypothesize that the Maya utilized a system similiar to the ley-lines of England, and the lung-mei of China, while constructing their ceremonial sites. Most recently scientists have discovered that when one stands at the front stair of the pyramid and claps a long drawn echo is produced which sonograms indicate is identical to the cry of the quetzal bird. Some people now consider that the pyramid is the first sound recording.
So uh... body ornamentation = Kukulcan? But then again mathematics=Zombie Zeus=ancient cavalry (every five turns)

Any chance somebody make two scenarios: another mesoamerica maybe slightly more accurate, and then maybe a tahuantinsuyu or andean scenario. Now divided. Quick thought: The Iroquois got ripped off, they appear in one scenario and you can't even play as them!