19-12-2003 21:09									#1
	Racist Undertones in Conquests Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was disgusted, while playing the Mesoamerica scenario, to see the specific civilization characters used to portray the lesser powers such as the Toltecs and Olmecs. The fact that the developers used already-existing characters to stand for the lesser powers did not surprise me. What did was the fact that the developers chose to use all the non-white leaders to stand for them. I acknlowedge that the ancient leaders of the Mesoamerican powers were not white by our standards, but this is by no means a justification to generalize and use character pictures from the Zulus, Iroquoi, and Mongols, to name a few. This just lumps together all the non-white characters and assumes they can represent any other non-white character or people. I would like to hear people's comments on this. Thanks.

	19-12-2003 21:17									#2
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They did a lot of skimping on artwork for Conquests in order to get the game released "on time." Frankly, since I pay almost no attention to leaderheads, I hadn't even noticed.

-Arrian

	19-12-2003 21:19									#3
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quote: I would like to hear people's comments on this.

i think you're off your rocker.

the only racism i've found in conquests is when i start making up new slurs to use against my captured workers.

	19-12-2003 21:19									#4
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Do you care that they used Abe as the leaderhead for Burgundy in the Middle Ages Scenario?

	19-12-2003 21:31									#5
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that they skimped on the art to get the game out on time, Arrian? Unless you're referring to the city views which I can count the number of times I've looked at on one hand....

But lemme join the "Yer off yer rocker" chorus on this one. I would imagine that - if any thought was put into which leaderheads were chosen, which I doubt - they chose the typically "ancient culture" civilization leaderheads for Mesoamerica.

I sincerely doubt any racism was intended or expressed by the choices made there.

It's this sort of rampant political correctness rubbish that has me saying "Fireperson" and "policeperson" to my students in class now. :P (Not that I actually DO, mind you.)

	19-12-2003 21:36									#6
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I couldn't imagine being one of your students Fried-must be a harrowing experience.

	19-12-2003 22:18									#7
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Maybe you could consider that it may not have been an overt racist choice, but merely one of expedience. It is not always required that one does things like this because they are evil, sometimes they are thoughtless (not studid), careless or wrong.
So why not give them the benefit of the doubt, until you have a reason to do otherwise?

I mean do you really think they sat down to do this as a means of demeaning someone?

	19-12-2003 22:58									#8
	Re: Racist Undertones in Conquests Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Metazoa I would like to hear people's comments on this. Thanks.

My comment would be that I think you are slightly crazy and paranoid. Or are just trying to stir up trouble.

	19-12-2003 23:23									#9
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quote: I'm not sure where you got the idea that they skimped on the art to get the game out on time, Arrian? Unless you're referring to the city views which I can count the number of times I've looked at on one hand...

Exactly what I meant. In other words: they didn't waste time perfecting silly little **** that I don't care about. I wasn't in any way complaining.

I too think he's off his rocker, but was trying to say it more politely.

-Arrian

	19-12-2003 23:45									#10
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Metazoa is right, this smacks of the kind of racism that says white is pure and anything else is inferior so it's allright to jumble around the black and brown peoples. It's as if the blacks and browns have no definitive cultures of their own, which is exactly what Europeans thought for a long time.

	19-12-2003 23:51									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I sincerely doubt any racism was intended or expressed by the choices made there.

I doubt it was intended also. But racism is so entrentched in the American phyche, it penetrates everything regardless if we're aware of it or not.

quote: It's this sort of rampant political correctness rubbish that has me saying "Fireperson" and "policeperson" to my students in class now. :P (Not that I actually DO, mind you.)

It's not politically correct, it's correct period. Shaka was not in Mesoamerica, or do you teach your students that he was? The Zulu and the Iroqs etc. are very different people. Indeed, the Zulu and the Xhosa are very different people.

Let's not go back to "all the mud people look alike".

Get a clue people.

	19-12-2003 23:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I too think he's off his rocker, but was trying to say it more politely. -Arrian

He's not off his rocker, see above.

	20-12-2003 00:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by G'Kar Metazoa is right, this smacks of the kind of racism that says white is pure and anything else is inferior so it's allright to jumble around the black and brown peoples. It's as if the blacks and browns have no definitive cultures of their own, which is exactly what Europeans thought for a long time.

I have a few choice words for this post, but they'd get filtered.

To the OP: You're being a bit extreme, reactionary, and over-PC. (Another polite way of saying off your rocker.)

To G'Kar: In light of the lengthy descriptions of various civs in the 'pedia and the general attention to detail, your post more off-the-rocker PC tripe. Next you'll say that this is just like the Haitians thing in GTA, which was also daft.

It's a game, folks.
Just a game.
Get over yourselves and start a new game.
Or quit playing this one.
Or get an artist to mod in more accurate leaderheads.
Either way, Civ3 and its expansions are not a political or cultural statement.
It's a game.

	20-12-2003 00:46									#14
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I think my Warmonger POV is interfering with my understanding of this silly thread and its impact on combat calculations and overall game balance.

In other words, gimme a break.

	20-12-2003 00:51									#15
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quote: Get a clue people.

Pick your battles, people. Seriously, this is 1 scenario in a computer game. A computer game, I might add, made by a design team that flat-out admitted that they didn't totally finish the artwork in the game in order to get it done - they prioritized other things.

So, even if you are right (which I do not necessarily concede, but I don't want to argue it), it's pretty silly to work up moral outrage over this.

-Arrian

	20-12-2003 01:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by G'Kar Metazoa is right, this smacks of the kind of racism that says white is pure and anything else is inferior so it's allright to jumble around the black and brown peoples. It's as if the blacks and browns have no definitive cultures of their own, which is exactly what Europeans thought for a long time.

Interesting that you should lump all white people together like we're are all one big culture. Perhaps you see racism in everything because you're racist and just assume everyone else is too.

	20-12-2003 01:22									#17
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I doubt that there were an "racist" intentions (consciously or subconsciously) since all the "white" leaderheads are frightfully ugly as well (just look at "Catherine"). My only gripe with Civ3 when it comes to its ideology is that it emphasizes heavily on the "Modernization Theory" of development, which isn't entirely accurate.

	20-12-2003 01:25									#18
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Fair enough Arrian, no moral outrage here. But I do think this move was an unintended slight against non-Europeans.

	20-12-2003 01:26									#19
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light up dude

	20-12-2003 01:28									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky Interesting that you should lump all white people together like we're are all one big culture. Perhaps you see racism in everything because you're racist and just assume everyone else is too.

To be more specific, I'll say that it was the policy of European nations to treat blacks and browns as though they had little if any history or culture.

	20-12-2003 01:51									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG light up dude

how bizarre. the official response to a debate about racism is to interject pro-drug use advocacy.

	20-12-2003 02:25									#22
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Yes but with the drivvle that the thread starter and his main supporter in this thread has spurned, one would presume they had already taken that course of action.

Metazoa and G'Kar get a life!!

	20-12-2003 02:42									#23
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i havent played the mesoamerica scenario yet, although from the list of civs listed (iroquois, zulu, mongols, any other?) i think they are the most appropriate short of having to make new leaderheads.

btw, isnt the francis I leaderhead in age of discovery custom made for that scenario? if so.... then perhaps firaxis could of made a couple of extra american indian leaderheads

	20-12-2003 03:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy i havent played the mesoamerica scenario yet, although from the list of civs listed (iroquois, zulu, mongols, any other?) i think they are the most appropriate short of having to make new leaderheads. btw, isnt the francis I leaderhead in age of discovery custom made for that scenario? if so.... then perhaps firaxis could of made a couple of extra american indian leaderheads

I m not at my Conquests computer, but I believe that leaderhead is the Austrian leaderhead, which is the bonus "32nd" civ.

	20-12-2003 03:12									#25
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I object the way the Sengoku scenario represents Japanese as circles, squiggly lines, and other symbols.

	20-12-2003 04:53									#26
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I wonder if what some are tring to say is that the world has lots of ugly things in it and we would just as soon not deal with when talking about our games. We must faces them most of th time, but how about you lets have a little down time when we play or talk about games?

	20-12-2003 06:15									#27
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quote: Originally posted by G'Kar To be more specific, I'll say that it was the policy of European nations to treat blacks and browns as though they had little if any history or culture.

Then again, we tend to integrate and assimilate other races rather than treating blacks and browns as a seperate entity in our 'culture' nowadays. Perhaps our longer history of dealing with other cultures has led us to this end, whereas the US in it's relative infancy has still to realise the benefits?

Anyway, I object to the plainly off-white-yellowish-bronzed look of Cleo in Civ3. It's obvious Firaxis are Nazis who hate anyone who gets decent levels of sunshine for more than 2 months of the year.

Get a grip.

	20-12-2003 11:46									#28
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Troll

	20-12-2003 11:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG light up dude

That pretty much goes for everyone. This is Civ. Its not like trying to conquer the world is politically correct either. I see political correctness in general as an attempt by some to impose their views upon others.

	20-12-2003 12:24									#30
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quote: Anyway, I object to the plainly off-white-yellowish-bronzed look of Cleo in Civ3. It's obvious Firaxis are Nazis who hate anyone who gets decent levels of sunshine for more than 2 months of the year. Get a grip.

CLUELESS!!
Alright, forget the "politically-correct"!
Your total IGNORANCE* with the "air" of knowledge has gotten disgusting!

Who conquered Egypt in the time of Alexander the Great? Who were the ruling class of Egypt during Cleo's time? Do some RESEARCH! (Hint: it had some tinge of Grecean formula to it).

* (1) I have read enough of Jeem's posts to put him on ignore. Why didn't I ignore this one! (2) If this had been CFC, I would probably get a couple days "vacation".