20-12-2003 01:05									#1
	Irrigation through Hills with Cities? Increase Your PM Length

Under PTW, Hills and Mountains blocked irrigation. Period. There was no way (before discovering Electricity) to get water across a hill/mountain line.

Under C3C, I think it is different. Playing a game of Conquests the other day, I could have sworn I irrigated a plains on the other side of a hill city. In other words, the city allowed the water to cross the hill.

It wasn't until later in the game when I was looking a the bare map (ctrl-shift-M) that I noticed this anomaly. Can anyone confirm this or do I have to go through my old save games?

Thanks.
- TT

	20-12-2003 01:24									#2
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Yes, I can confirm it.

You can irrigate through a city built on a hill in Conquests.

I was rather surprised to find that out myself...

-Arrian

	20-12-2003 01:24									#3
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I think I spotted the same thing.

	20-12-2003 01:48									#4
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Yes you definitely can. Startled me too.

	20-12-2003 01:51									#5
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It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason.

Catt

	20-12-2003 01:57									#6
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I was surprised by this too. It can be quite useful.

	20-12-2003 02:32									#7
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It makes perfect sense to me and see no reason to change it. Would'nt a city have a means to move water from one side of its sprawl to another?

	20-12-2003 04:04									#8
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quote: It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason. Catt

Ahh, so it is a bug and not by design?

	20-12-2003 08:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason. Catt Ahh, so it is a bug and not by design?

I guess I'd probably agree with ChrisiusMaximus that it seems an interesting design decision (provided the AI could utilize it effectively).

But I think it is most probably a bug -- it cropped up in PTW (perhaps the release version) and was changed back to the "no irrigation" functionality we're used to in a subsequent patch.

Catt

	20-12-2003 16:37									#10
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Thanks.
Could be quite usefull on certain (badly generated?) maps.

	20-12-2003 16:43									#11
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Im in a 80% islands pbem at the moment and have a whole bunch of plains that could do with the water. If only it weren't for that pesky hill

	20-12-2003 21:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by alva Thanks. Could be quite usefull on certain (badly generated?) maps.

It's quite useful for the Aztecs and Maya in Age of Discovery.

	21-12-2003 13:30									#13
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Yep. The Aztecs start on a hill.

But I always thought you could irrage over if you built your city on a hill and the hill is only 1 tile wide (ie you have plains/grassland on either side).

	21-12-2003 23:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty Im in a 80% islands pbem at the moment and have a whole bunch of plains that could do with the water. If only it weren't for that pesky hill

I don't know why you're complaining. At least you HAVE water! Water is very scarce in that game.

	21-12-2003 23:37									#15
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Thanks everyone for the confirmation and comments. I just wanted to make sure that what I was seeing was indeed a general feature/bug and not unique to my specific situation.

Personally, I kind of like the old way. It makes the game more interesting (in my mind at least) to have the extra challenge of "dry areas". Also, there are enough things in Civ3 that promote artificial city placements as it is.

I will take advantage of it while its there, though.

Happy Holidays.

- TT

	22-12-2003 09:26									#16
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I don't see any reason for it to be one way or the other.

	22-12-2003 11:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yes, I can confirm it. You can irrigate through a city built on a hill in Conquests. I was rather surprised to find that out myself... -Arrian

Surprised?

I was surprised when I read that you were surprised, especially since I clearly remembered a PtW game (v1.27f) where I did exactly this.

Luckily I found the save, and after pillaging the irrigation that I had just set down through the hill city some turns earlier, you can clearly see that the worker can irrigate that grass tile. There is no nearby water except the coast, and I am on Printing Press (so no Electricity!). The game has not been modded in any way.

In fact, when I started searching for the save, I thought that perhaps this 'bug' had been in v1.21f, and been changed for the latest version. However, in whichever version I started this game in (99% certain v1.27f, remaining 1% chance of v1.21f) it was possible to irrigate through hill cities, and it is possible again when loaded into PtW v1.27f.

Any explanation to this, or has it ALWAYS been possible to irrigate through Hills?

	22-12-2003 13:23									#18
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Well, if you can place a city there, why not using the tile as a link in your irrigation network?

I like it, it helps the human a bit. The AI can irrigate everywhere, even before electricity. Which gives the peculiar strategy of waiting to capture a dry area until the AI has started with irrigation there...

	22-12-2003 17:09									#19
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There's something about that coast line that made me think. Without irrigating that tile, try moving your worker 8 of where it is now and see if you can irrigate that one. I might be wrong, but the game might consider the blob of water 9 of your current position to be a lake. I have seen such lakes in a lot of my games, since vanilla Civ3 to PTW 1.21f.

	22-12-2003 19:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by bongo The AI can irrigate everywhere, even before electricity.

I'm quite certain that this is false.

	22-12-2003 19:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt There is no nearby water except the coast, and I am on Printing Press (so no Electricity!).

Not to nitpick, but researching Printing Press is not valid proof of not having Electricity since Printing Press is an optional tech.

	22-12-2003 20:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula There's something about that coast line that made me think. Without irrigating that tile, try moving your worker 8 of where it is now and see if you can irrigate that one. I might be wrong, but the game might consider the blob of water 9 of your current position to be a lake. I have seen such lakes in a lot of my games, since vanilla Civ3 to PTW 1.21f.

I think you are correct. That blob of water is really a lake and that's why the grassland can be irrigated.

I'm just about positive that PTW 1.27f did not allow irrigation through hilled cities.

- TT

	22-12-2003 23:45									#23
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Nice theory but I looked at the save with PTW and it doesn't look like a lake:

Attachment: notlake.jpg
This has been downloaded 154 time(s).

	22-12-2003 23:55									#24
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It's not a lake because the tile SE of it is not a land tile.

	23-12-2003 00:00									#25
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BTW, in C3C the definitions of "lake" have changed. A "sea" tile doesn't invalidate a "lake" anymore.

	23-12-2003 00:49									#26
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That is odd. Is Heliopolis definitely built on a hill (looks like it, but I'm running out of ideas here).

I was pretty sure that PTW 1.27 did not allow irrigation through hill cities, but I suppose it's possible that it got changed and I never noticed...

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 01:54									#27
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Dominae, I am pretty sure I have seen lots of irrigated tiles in funny places inside AI territory. I'm going to check a few saves before I call it a fact though..

	23-12-2003 02:08									#28
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I have never seen a proven case of the AI irrigating where it shouldn't be able to. Not once.

I've seen a lot of claims that were proven false, however.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 07:28									#29
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I tried to irrigate over a hill city in PTW and it didn't work. I was really suprised when it was an option to my Worker in Conquests. I don't have the latest PTW patch though so it may have been recently added via patch.

	23-12-2003 10:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian That is odd. Is Heliopolis definitely built on a hill (looks like it, but I'm running out of ideas here). -Arrian

Confirmed. It is definitely on a hill. The worker cannot irrigate either North or south of that tile, It seems pretty evident that it is only being next to the city that provides the irrigation source.

Any other takers?