20-12-2003 20:17									#31
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"Gandalf the Grey" was beaten by "Saruman the White".

"Gandalf the White", however, was beaten by no-one, right?

People... except these uber-wizards it seems, die for real in LotR, rather than the soft and plushy world that is HP. If you die in HP, its blatant plot device... and not a sign of a dangerous world.

My take is that Gandalf the White would whip Dumbledore silly AND those Ring Wraiths would mince the Dementors in a new york minute.

	20-12-2003 20:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise My theory is that the Ringwraiths can't feel hopelessness. I think Sauron's corruption of them means that they can only feel hate, greed, and violence as long as his power sustains them.

My theory is that Sauron's power doesn't work in Potterverse, so the 'wraiths are as good as dead.

	20-12-2003 20:29									#33
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Who's to say where this battle would take place. And who's to say what the reach of the power of the Ring was?

	20-12-2003 20:37									#34
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GEEKS!

* GePap runs away yet again.

	20-12-2003 20:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My theory is that Sauron's power doesn't work in Potterverse,

Based on what evidence?

	20-12-2003 22:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Who's to say where this battle would take place.

Read the OP

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins And who's to say what the reach of the power of the Ring was?

In actuality, it doesn't exist at all. But I am giving it benefit of the doubt. Help me here.

	21-12-2003 00:19									#37
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Paiktis is the only thing more feared than Ringwraiths.

	21-12-2003 02:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And Dumbledore is the most power creature in the Potterverse... sounds akin to an angel to me.

Powerful Wizard < Minor God!

Hand-to-hand: Dumbledore is an old man with a wand. Gandalf *looks* old, but he's actually eternal. After all, he's a minor god. When the combat starts, he picks up his staff and starts kicking ass beside the young bucks he travels with. Oh, wait. Excuse me. He uses the staff in *one* hand. He has GLAMDRING in the other.

If Gandalf gets close, the fight is already over. Dumbledore probably knows this. He wants to keep Gandalf at a distance, so that means magic.

Now, we have no idea of the extent of either wizard's destructive power. We can probably assume that Gandalf's is greater, because he's a MINOR GOD. On the other hand, sheer force probably never comes into play. We've seen how wizards fight in both worlds, and Gandalf has the Quick Draw advantage here. While Dumbledore is busy pointing his wand and shouting his magic words, Gandalf swings his staff and knocks him on his ass from across the field.

	21-12-2003 03:12									#39
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quote: People... except these uber-wizards it seems, die for real in LotR, rather than the soft and plushy world that is HP.

Aroo? People don't die for real in HP? What about Cedric the Ravenclaw in GoF? What about Sirius in OotP? Are you telling me they are still alive?

quote: We've seen how wizards fight in both worlds, and Gandalf has the Quick Draw advantage here. While Dumbledore is busy pointing his wand and shouting his magic words, Gandalf swings his staff and knocks him on his ass from across the field.

You don't always need a wand for magic (or to say any magic words with the wand in your hand - once again see the battle in OotP). For the more important spells, of course, but it doesn't take all that long to whip out a wand (assuming he doesn't have it out already).

quote: Powerful Wizard < Minor God!

When a Wizard can do things akin to a Minor God, I think it is safe to equalize them. He can disappear and appear at will. He can make inanimate objects do his bidding (making statues come alive, water & fire acting like puddy in his hands). 'Beaming' his enemies in the painful coil of hellish creatures. And, of course, Voldemort showed that a powerful wizard can control others very easily without a wand or magic words.

Sounds kinda God-ish, don't you think?

	21-12-2003 04:25									#40
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I think the evidence speaks for itself, Imran.

	21-12-2003 05:18									#41
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I all seems to depend upon the stature with which the beholder holds the literature in question. Clearly, the majority here feel the Harry Potter books cannot hold a candle to the Tolkien books, with one notable exception: Imran. This isn't Dementors vs. Ring Wraiths. It is Rowlings vs. Tolkien.

Last edited by pchang on 21-12-2003 at 05:26

	21-12-2003 05:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My theory is that Sauron's power doesn't work in Potterverse, so the 'wraiths are as good as dead.

Ah, but Sauron's power comes from Melkor. Melkor is "outside the world" according to the Silmarillion. I propose that this means that he is outside the crossover multiverse but that his will remains inside it. As such, Sauron's power can be extended from Middle Earth to the Potterverse.

Heck, I don't know

	21-12-2003 06:12									#43
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quote: I think the evidence speaks for itself, Imran.

Yeah, that Dumbledore would hold up very well against Gandalf and probably win.

Seeing as how it seems you haven't read OotP, you have no standing in this discussion, because that is the only point in the books where Dumbledore fights (once against the Aurors and once against Voldemort).

	21-12-2003 06:58									#44
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Hell, I read it. But that's a situation of an Idiot amoungst Idiots, as it were.

	21-12-2003 07:02									#45
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Throw in the Swedish Bikini team minus the bikinis and all go to opening night.

	21-12-2003 07:47									#46
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quote: But that's a situation of an Idiot amoungst Idiots, as it were.

And Gandalf isn't... among Idiots, I mean? If Voldemort is considered an idiot, then so is Saruman (even more so).

And funny you didn't mention it earlier... try to diminish the obvious skills and accomplishments of Dumbledore by ignoring them to try to make your point .

	21-12-2003 09:05									#47
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Hey, That's Lincoln-Douglas debating style for ya.

	21-12-2003 09:14									#48
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Well I'm happy to be Lincoln then .

I don't doubt that Gandalf is very powerful (especially after he is sent back), what I contest is that Dumbledore isn't as powerful. Since there are no Gods (well... as far as we know, since Rowling is British, chances are that she is an atheist) in Potter's world, Dumbledore is the closest thing you'll get to one, and he is pretty damned close... as is Voldemort.

Now Gandalf with the One Ring (and not just his one of three elvish rings) would obviously be more powerful than Dumbledore.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 21-12-2003 at 10:29

	21-12-2003 10:15									#49
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Wouldn't Sauron own Gandalf's soul if he had the One Ring?

	21-12-2003 10:28									#50
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Hmmm... interesting question. I haven't read the Simillarion, so perhaps someone who has can answer?

	21-12-2003 10:31									#51
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I've seen nothing so far that comes close to convincing me that Voldemort is even in Sauron's class.

	21-12-2003 10:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise Wouldn't Sauron own Gandalf's soul if he had the One Ring?

Not instantly. The power of the Ring takes time to corrupt. Powerful wizards become uber-wizards in the mean time.

	21-12-2003 10:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well I'm happy to be Lincoln then .

You are aware that Lincoln lost the Senate seat he was debating for?

	21-12-2003 10:43									#54
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Well, I shall enter this nerdy fray with a few simple observations:

Nothing whatsoever in the "potterverse" (OK...) comes even close to being as mythic and terrifying as a beast like a Balrog- and Gandalf the Gey was able to defeat one.

As with all "story-mixing" debates, since the fundamentals are so different it is really impossible to judge-but simply given the scop of the stories, there can be no real comparison..LoTR deals with Epic good vs Evil on a"global" scale, while in the Potterverse you are barely even told if the vast majority of mankind would suffer any effect from Voldemorts takeover.

Lets put it this way..in the Potterverse, the killing of 13 people is probalby the biggest single act of violence I have seen mentioned in the book: compare this to vast battles...I mean, no contest whatsoever.

	21-12-2003 10:59									#55
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quote: I've seen nothing so far that comes close to convincing me that Voldemort is even in Sauron's class.

I didn't say it was. I said Voldemort is in Saruman's class.

quote: You are aware that Lincoln lost the Senate seat he was debating for?

He won the war though .

	21-12-2003 11:02									#56
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quote: the Potterverse you are barely even told if the vast majority of mankind would suffer any effect from Voldemorts takeover.

Well the head of Durmstrang, in GoF, was a death eater. Also the Giants (which where in central Europe) were part of Voldemort's army (he claims that in GoF).

But yes we are suffering from too little information in Rowling's world. I guess there are two more books to find out. I assume there had to be some major battles in the First War between Voldemort's forces and the Aurors.

	21-12-2003 14:06									#57
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quote: My theory is that Sauron's power doesn't work in Potterverse, so the 'wraiths are as good as dead.

The ringwraiths don't need the power of Sauron to sustain them, as is evidenced by the Witch King's establishment of a kingdom in Angmar and his subsequent destruction of the northern kingdom of Arnor, all done whilst Sauron was still incorporeal after being struck down by Isildur. As long as the One Ring still exists, the ringwraiths will survive and be able to operate without guidance from Sauron, if need be.

	21-12-2003 19:05									#58
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On the arguement Dumbledore is almost an angel or demi-god:

WHAT????

Being the best Wizard in the world does no make him a demi-god anymore than being the bex boxer in the world for a while made Mike Tyson a demi-God. Dumbledore is old after, what? a century or 2? While Gandalf lives forever? Big difference. Lets ee Dumbledore fall down a huge chasm and fight by hand a creature half as frighting and powerful as a Balrog, then lets talk.

	21-12-2003 19:08									#59
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Right. Gandalf had already lived 300 lives ages by the time of the war. Thats a lot of ass-whupping experience.

	21-12-2003 19:19									#60
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quote: Wouldn't Sauron own Gandalf's soul if he had the One Ring? Hmmm... interesting question. I haven't read the Simillarion, so perhaps someone who has can answer?

Depends on the power of the wielder. Gandalf would have enough power (with the ring) to unseat Sauron and take his place as a new dark lord.

quote: My theory is that Sauron's power doesn't work in Potterverse, so the 'wraiths are as good as dead.

When the ring was destroyed, the wraiths were destroyed too. So they are bound to Sauron and the ring. There were things said in LotR that make me think that Sauron's power doesn't go beyond middle earth...then again, if the nine can enter the pottyverse, his power must reach there...