20-12-2003 09:52									#1
	Diplomacy... how to act? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have been playing a game as the Iroquois...
I took advantage of my UU and decided to be very aggressive in the begining of the game, and I wiped out the Americans and the Aztecs, save for 2 cities each. Later on, when the other half of the world was discovered, everyone had a very low relationship with me. The Germans eventually declared war on me, and quickly made a military alliance with the Americans and the Aztecs. Next thing I know, the whole world has a military alliance against me.

It is not that I am having a hard time in my game now, seeing that I am far more powerfull than all of them, and I already finished off the Americans and Aztecs, but in a more difficult level, I know I would be in deep trouble if this happened.

How should I act diplomatically? Was it a mistake to leave the Americans and Aztecs 2 towns left?

Thanks!

	20-12-2003 10:08									#2
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We call it the Arrian deception. When you are pounding a civ and get them down to subsitance, be sure to eliminate them before contact with other civs. They will then never know about your bad manners.

Germany is going to be hard to get along with no matter what. You need to be much stronger and be nice at all times and even that does not always work.

	20-12-2003 10:35									#3
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quote: Was it a mistake to leave the Americans and Aztecs 2 towns left?

Perhaps it would have been better if the other civs had never gotten contacted the Americans and Aztecs, discovering your behavior. It depends on how your aggressiveness played out.

See the AI Attitude article (and accompanying thread) at CFC.

It is often advisable, when someone declares war on you, to get everyone else in alliance against them as soon as you can. This (usually) prevents them from doing the same to you. The Germans are mean SOBs (maximum aggressive attitude) to begin with, and take extra care.

[EDIT: it only took me a good 27 minutes to open the thread and get around to replying, therefore the crosspost. Mybad.[/EDIT]

	21-12-2003 11:38									#4
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quote: Was it a mistake to leave the Americans and Aztecs 2 towns left?

Simple answer: yes.

	22-12-2003 20:06									#5
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While I see the point people are making about not leaving small civs around, it comes with a downside. A small, desparate civ is likely to give up all its tech to get peace from you. If you destroy them, you don't get the tech.

	22-12-2003 21:22									#6
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator While I see the point people are making about not leaving small civs around, it comes with a downside. A small, desparate civ is likely to give up all its tech to get peace from you. If you destroy them, you don't get the tech.

So make peace with them, get the techs, wait 20 turns for peace treaty to expire, then destroy them!!

	22-12-2003 22:16									#7
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the changes to contact rules have increased the usefullness in the Arrian Deception to me great fun

	23-12-2003 05:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel the changes to contact rules have increased the usefullness in the Arrian Deception to me great fun

Just a note: the changes were made to 'Trading Contacts' . This doesn't necessarily negate another civ from discovering contact on their own.

If the civ has nothing to offer, take their land.

If the civ still has techs to offer (many times when they're that beaten-down, they get further behind than the human player), then keep them around to extort techs from. Then take their land.

If the civ has money in the treasury, Take their land (the money will come as their cities fall.)

Hopefully, there is a pattern developing here.

	23-12-2003 07:51									#9
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Yes, the pattern is

ATTACK.

Take.

ATTACK.

Take some more.

Don't have anything left????

ATTACK AND DESTROY!

This is as reflexive to a good civ player as breathing or sleeping.

	24-12-2003 00:29									#10
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If ever the thought of pity for the AI should creep into your mind, dismiss it at once. Would it grant you mercy? Not a chance. Would it extort from you, and then attack you early anyway? Quite likely.

And by the time you get to the modern age, is your foreign advisor bad-mouthing the other civs for 'betrayal'? Always.

While I can rarely stay mad for more than an hour at almost any deed done by any human - this does not hold true for the AI. It's a cheating little ratbag and deserves EVERYTHING IT GETS

(hopes he ain't broken the forum rule for 'hateful speech' )

As for wanting the other civs to be nice to you...there's always the 'common enemy' approach. Pick a civ you don't like, declare war on it, then have everyone else 'dogpile' on them

If this is out of the question due to war weariness, I'm sure embassies/right of passage should keep the rabble at bay
Sometimes the AI is determined to be a treacherous pig no matter how nice you are, but generally when that happens, you see it acting suspiciously before-hand and 'take steps'

CFC article =

	24-12-2003 01:23									#11
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"Shoot zem. Shoot zem both."[/Raiders of the Lost Ark]

In short, it would probably have been best to eliminate those two civs (after extorting as much tech as possible from them).

The longer version is this: if you were careful not to break any 20-turn deals or violate any RoP agreements, then your actions towards those two civs most likely had only a minor affect on relations with the overseas civs. More likely it came down to Bismarck being the bastard he is, and the AI's (smart) tendency to call in allies.

If you *did* break deals, then not wiping out the offended parties was absolutely a mistake.

-Arrian, the deceiver

Nine rings for mortal men...

	11-01-2004 09:00									#12
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Theres just no possible way for me to agree more with Cerbykins on this subject. I couldnt have writen it better even if i were Shakespear or Thomas Jefferson! Give the AI the h**l it deserves! which at some times may be a little exagerated but thats fine!

But seriously the Normic Alien Armada is going to wipe out all of mankind. Its on the moon for breakfast right now. So watch out or THIS --> could be you!

	12-01-2004 16:46									#13
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There are two points.

Firstly your good start. Once the human player is heading towards dominance the AI's basic attitude will be marked dislike.

Secondly the AI is able, and does, give a higher early priority to establishing contact and embassies. Plus it shares tech generously with its AI brethren. Which means all your AI opponents have the tech and the embassies needed to engage in diplomacy.

And this means that if you find yourself at war with one enemy that enemy will steadily invite all the other AI civs to join in against you.

It is worst if the first enemy has some cash. But it will happen even if they don't.

Maybe you can counter this to a degree by engaging in diplomacy yourself. But early on you haven't yet made up the productivity gap between you and the AI. So you are unlikely to have the contacts, embassies, tech and resources to counter effectively.

The conclusion is that if you can avoid random wars it is helpful to do so. Give in to extortion and, if you spot some sign that an opponent may be about to declare, seek to placate them.

Also, give a slightly higher priority to opening embassies once it becomes possible to do so.

And when you have reason yourself to declare, spend a modicum of effort and such resources as you can afford, diplomatically to isolate the enemy to such extent as you can.