22-12-2003 11:40									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He played the 2nd best defense in the league, completed over 50% of his passes against them. Threw 2 TD and NO INTs. I'd say he played pretty damned good this week. Your hatred for Vick is clouding your judgment.

he completed 8 passes... and he sucked rushing... 3.2 per play

quote: After all, with Vick they are 2-1, and both wins against a good opponent. Without Vick, the Falcons were 2-10.

if one player means THAT much to the Falcons, then they just suck

quote: How is gaining 150 yards not doing ****? It moves the chains, gets you in good field position. Obviously if you run for 150 yards and don't score many points, the passing game is to blame. The running game did its job.

Rushing yards can be very deceiving. How many of those yards come on one or two plays? How many yards come late in the game when the result is decided? How many touchdowns does a RB get? First downs? High yard totals are good, but just like with Minnesota vs Bears last week, you can gain a shitload of yards and still not do ****.

quote: So that win against Tennessee? That wasn't a big game? What is a big game then?

against an injured McNair... BTW, I watched New England beat the Colts in the 4th quarter after Peyton's offense couldnt' gain like 2 yards to win it.

quote: I think Tampa Bay might disagree with that statement.

yeah... because they won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson?

	22-12-2003 11:49									#92
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quote: he completed 8 passes...

Out of 15 attempts. The playcall was to run. He was good when he needed. 2 TDs of those 8 passes.

quote: if one player means THAT much to the Falcons, then they just suck

DID YOU WATCH THE FALCONS THIS YEAR WITHOUT VICK? I couldn't think of a more 'DUH' statement .

quote: ushing yards can be very deceiving. How many of those yards come on one or two plays? How many yards come late in the game when the result is decided? How many touchdowns does a RB get? First downs? High yard totals are good, but just like with Minnesota vs Bears last week, you can gain a shitload of yards and still not do ****.

Portis is the type of player who usually gains his yards over many carries. He usually doesn't break many 60+ runs and when he does, the end result is more like 200 yards rushing . He also has a pretty decent number of TDs (14)

1591 yards, and missing a few games leads to a 5.5 ypc average, which is eye popping. And Denver is 10-5, mostly on the strength of the running game, so I don't think you can say he runs a lot of yards and doesn't do ****.

quote: against an injured McNair

When is McNair NOT injured?

quote: I watched New England beat the Colts in the 4th quarter after Peyton's offense couldnt' gain like 2 yards to win it.

How is that Peyton's fault, when the only time he had the ball in his hand is one throw and the rest were handoffs to James? Bad playcalling by Dungy, I'll admit, but he's made better playcalls before.

quote: yeah... because they won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson?

Huh... I think you misunderstood. Tampa got lit up by Peyton in a VERY clutch moment on Monday Night Football earlier this year.

And Johnson is a pretty good QB. This year he's got a rating of 84.5 (5th in the NFC, and better than Bulger & McNabb) whith 3700+ passing yards. And last year he had a 92.9 rating.

	22-12-2003 11:53									#93
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quote: How is that Peyton's fault, when the only time he had the ball in his hand is one throw and the rest were handoffs to James? Bad playcalling by Dungy, I'll admit, but he's made better playcalls before.

Normally, Peyton calls his own plays in situations like that, but in this case Tom Moore was told to call the play and decided "Well, it worked against Buffalo, it should work again". Most of the big plays are actually from Manning himself.

	22-12-2003 11:55									#94
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quote: Huh... I think you misunderstood. Tampa got lit up by Peyton in a VERY clutch moment on Monday Night Football earlier this year.

21 points in 2 minutes.

	22-12-2003 11:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Out of 15 attempts. The playcall was to run. He was good when he needed. 2 TDs of those 8 passes.

because Phillips knows Vick sucks

quote: DID YOU WATCH THE FALCONS THIS YEAR WITHOUT VICK? I couldn't think of a more 'DUH' statement .

yeah my point exactly

quote: Portis is the type of player who usually gains his yards over many carries. He usually doesn't break many 60+ runs and when he does, the end result is more like 200 yards rushing . He also has a pretty decent number of TDs (14) 1591 yards, and missing a few games leads to a 5.5 ypc average, which is eye popping. And Denver is 10-5, mostly on the strength of the running game, so I don't think you can say he runs a lot of yards and doesn't do ****.

you are talking about an entire season, I'm talking about one game.

quote: When is McNair NOT injured?

brittle and still better than Michael "MOST OVERRATED PLAYER EVER" Vick...

quote: How is that Peyton's fault, when the only time he had the ball in his hand is one throw and the rest were handoffs to James? Bad playcalling by Dungy, I'll admit, but he's made better playcalls before.

Playcalling by Dungy? Do you have some illusions about who runs that offense? Dungy is a defensive guy... and if you watched that game, you would have seen Peyton barking out the plays.

quote: Huh... I think you misunderstood. Tampa got lit up by Peyton in a VERY clutch moment on Monday Night Football earlier this year.

clutch? earlier in the year? do you know what clutch is?

quote: And Johnson is a pretty good QB. This year he's got a rating of 84.5 (5th in the NFC, and better than Bulger & McNabb) whith 3700+ passing yards. And last year he had a 92.9 rating.

Johnson's not bad, but I doubt anyone puts him in the same class with Peyton. Peyton will be just like Marino... he will put up great stats, year after year, but never win the BIG GAME. I doubt Peyton will even get to it.

Of course, in this NFL, you never know. And if the Colts win it this year, I will puke.

	22-12-2003 11:55									#96
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Yeah, but as you pointed out, not that time. I figured it wasn't Manning there, because he would have thrown more than once.

	22-12-2003 11:56									#97
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quote: Of course, in this NFL, you never know. And if the Colts win it this year, I will puke.

Because, like everything else you just said, you were wrong?

	22-12-2003 11:59									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Because, like everything else you just said, you were wrong?

do you live in the bizarro world? just curious... or did you not see the Bears beat the Broncos and Portis's 150 or so yard game? Did you not see the Vikes lose to the Bears after Onterrio Smith's huge rushing day? or are you living in some sort of dream world like Imran?

	22-12-2003 12:02									#99
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quote: because Phillips knows Vick sucks

No, Phillips actually thinks Vick is the best player in the league... at least that is what he has said on many an occasion. He just knew that the way to win against Tampa is to run, run, and run some more. Against the Bucs you get in trouble by throwing (except if you are Peyton Manning).

quote: you are talking about an entire season, I'm talking about one game.

Even in that one game, he moved the chains. One person usually does not win a game by himself.

quote: brittle and still better than Michael "MOST OVERRATED PLAYER EVER" Vick...

And you've already admited that the Falcons are a one man team. With that one man they went to the playoffs. Without him, they were going for the #1 draft pick. Doesn't seem overrated at all based on those facts.

quote: and if you watched that game, you would have seen Peyton barking out the plays.

Peyton barks out 'plays' for every play. It is to confuse the defense as to whether Manning is audibiling or not. On that case, the playcall was definetly from the coaches and Manning knows not to audible on the goalline (he probably isn't given free reign there).

quote: clutch? earlier in the year? do you know what clutch is?

Yes, a 4th Q comeback IS clutch play! Why else would Elway be a 'clutch' QB when he didn't win the SB until the end of his career?

quote: And if the Colts win it this year, I will puke.

Then I hope you puke . I think the Colts could beat KC if they face them in the 2nd round in the playoffs. NE in the snow would be incredibly hard.

	22-12-2003 12:05									#100
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Running isn't everything. All it does is move the chains, exhaust the defense, set up play-action passes.

Most of the time, you don't see a running back decide a game.

	22-12-2003 12:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, Phillips actually thinks Vick is the best player in the league... at least that is what he has said on many an occasion. He just knew that the way to win against Tampa is to run, run, and run some more. Against the Bucs you get in trouble by throwing (except if you are Peyton Manning).

then Phillips is an idiot

quote: Even in that one game, he moved the chains. One person usually does not win a game by himself.

moving the chains ain't **** if you can't score

quote: And you've already admited that the Falcons are a one man team. With that one man they went to the playoffs. Without him, they were going for the #1 draft pick. Doesn't seem overrated at all based on those facts.

and you are basing this on his record in 3 games... eekkk I personally think the Falcons sucked so bad because Johnons was REALLY bad... and in this NFL, you can't compare years... last year, the Raiders and Tampa were making ass hats out of everyone... now look at them.

quote: Peyton barks out 'plays' for every play. It is to confuse the defense as to whether Manning is audibiling or not. On that case, the playcall was definetly from the coaches and Manning knows not to audible on the goalline (he probably isn't given free reign there).

Probably... but regardless... 4 plays... and they couldn't gain 2 yards to win it. That's a clutch situation and the leader of that offense lead them to a loss.

quote: Yes, a 4th Q comeback IS clutch play! Why else would Elway be a 'clutch' QB when he didn't win the SB until the end of his career?

regular season "comebacks" mean little... coming back just means you were LOSING

quote: Then I hope you puke . I think the Colts could beat KC if they face them in the 2nd round in the playoffs. NE in the snow would be incredibly hard.

KC is going to get knocked out easily... they are reeling after two terrible losses.

And Frozz, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying running isn't important. I think running is tied with defense as being the most important part of a winning team. What I'm saying is that even though Portis and Smith had great rushing totals against the Bears, they still didn't do **** to help their team win. And so far, Kansas City is DEAD LAST against the run in total yards allowed... and second to last in total yards allowed. How far do you think they will get?

About rushing...
Look at last year's top runners...
Ricky Williams -- missed the playoffs
LaDanian Tomlinsin -- missed the playoffs
Priest Holmes -- missed the playoffs
Clinton Portis -- missed the playoffs
Travis Henry -- missed the playoffs

Rushing yards are great, but they can be deceiving stats.

Some more deceiving stats you ask? How about points allowed per game...

2 of the top 3 defensive leaders in this category won't make the playoffs..

Tampa Bay -- 15.4
Buffalo -- 16.3
and maybe Miami 16.9

Takeaways can also be deceiving... in the NFC, two of the top 3 takeaways leaders won't make the playoffs...

San Francisco and Tampa Bay... both with +8

Now does this mean that getting takeways, allowing low points per game, and rushing over 150 yards won't win? Absolutely not... but one should look at the ENTIRE TEAM and the individual team matchups and their respective schedules before make bold predictions.

Personally, I like New England because they just seem a find a way to win every week. They've beaten Indianapolis, Tennesee, Denver, Philadelphia, and Dallas... all good teams... and they held Ricky Williams to sub 100 yard games in both victories over Miami, with yards per rush totals below his season average.

	22-12-2003 12:42									#102
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and BTW, 4 teams expected to go in the playoffs; St. Louis, Tennessee, Indianapolis, and New England, all rank in the bottom quarter in total rushing yards for the season.

The only somewhat consistent stat that coincides with a team's record seems to be points scored per game. Total yards on offense is kind of important, but Tampa Bay; the team with the best defense (points per game) is number 4 and they aren't going to the playoffs.

ahh parity... IT'S GARBAGE!

	22-12-2003 13:38									#103
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Establishing a good run game is vital againt teams with good offenses.

Look no further than the Broncos tonight. They kept Manning and co off the field. That's how they won (not to mention some dodgy calls )

	22-12-2003 13:54									#104
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I stayed out of this little discussion.

But how can you complain about a running back who gets 150 yards in a game!!!! That's the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

Running the ball has more effects on a football game than just moving the ball down the field. It has to do with game management. There is a reason why good rushing teams win the superbowl almost all the time. And it's not because they get more yards rushing than passing- that is almost never the case. Passing will nearly always get more yards. Game management. And by extension- clock management. Rushing keeps the ball in your possesion, keeps your defense of the field (even top defenses cannot win games if they are on the field a majority of the time), and dictating terms of your drive. Rushing opens up your entire offensive playbook essentually. It gives many, many more options.

yes there have been times where a single running back has rushed for 150 yards and lost, but that is very infrequent.

	22-12-2003 14:03									#105
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quote: And by extension- clock management. Rushing keeps the ball in your possesion, keeps your defense of the field (even top defenses cannot win games if they are on the field a majority of the time), and dictating terms of your drive.

Not to mention running the ball sets up those play-action passes, end-arounds and big heaves downfield that make sides Like the Colts and Patriots so dangerous when they begin to click, they are impossible to stop.

	22-12-2003 14:31									#106
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quote: leads to a 5.5 ypc average, which is eye popping.

Not this season...

	22-12-2003 14:38									#107
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now I made my case about rushing. Now to discuss Vick.

Vick had a so-so day. But he got the win, that is all that is important. It's still too soon to tell for him. There is one more game left this season, but I feel next season is whether we see if Vick has the leadership to take a team to the playoffs. We all know he's extremely talented and can win some tough games. but can he take a team deep into the playoffs? That remains to be seen.

	22-12-2003 22:01									#108
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you guys aren't getting what I am saying

I'M NOT SAYING RUSHING ISN'T IMPORTANT!!!! I'M NOT SAYING RUSHING IS WORTHLESS OR THAT 150 YARDS A GAME IS BAD!!!!

sigh... read my posts over since you guys don't get it... I can't find any moer ways to say the same thing.

	22-12-2003 22:10									#109
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Was it Yogi Berra who said "The team who scores the most points USUAlLY wins"?

Rushing is important. You need to establish a good run game to open up the secondary for the pass by keeping people up to protect the run. Similarly if you only play the pass rush your secondary will get picked a part. I think the 49ers did a good job yesterday keeping McNabb and Staley contained, had they ran the ball more they may have done better.

One side of the ball, or one stat is not important, it is everything that combines that determines the best team; and that is the team with more wins in the right games.

San Diego had one of the best Ds through the 90s and even had the #1 defense in a year when they only had 1 win!

I just came here to say Yaaay Niners, you may be out of the hunt but you still control the fates of other teams... I said never count them out, Eagles suck!!! and it looks like we don't really need TO, that Lloyd guy has the hops and Wilson is great... get rid of TO and keep Garcia... that's my 2 cents on that.

Oh, and can anyone tell me why ppl were chanting "Aikman Sucks" during the game? I know he was in the booth, but what does Philly have against him?

Also, the last play by the Saints was fun to watch, and that last quarter by the Bucs was superb, sucks it didn't make OT..

	22-12-2003 22:13									#110
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quote: San Diego had one of the best Ds through the 90s and even had the #1 defense in a year when they only had 1 win!

uhmmm sorry I don't believe this...

	22-12-2003 22:29									#111
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#1 against the rush in 2000...

	22-12-2003 22:31									#112
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that's different than "#1 defense"

	22-12-2003 22:36									#113
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I was speaking of the top of my head, I had to search for just that stat, and am trying to find their overall ranking...

They were still a really good defense for a 1 win team, and is a good example of how one side of the ball does not always determine if your team is good or not... I also think the 49er D of this years is awesome.

	22-12-2003 22:44									#114
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So is the Bills' D, and they also have a crap record.

	22-12-2003 22:55									#115
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13th overall

Anyway look at Defensive ratings vs. Records or even playoff spots for this year:

1. Dallas - clinch spot, but not division
2. Buffalo - sitting at .500
3. Denver - clinch wild card
4. Tampa Bay - you mean the Tampa has beens?
5. Baltimore - their fate is still in the air, but are still 9-6
6. Jacksonville - 5-10, impressive
7. New England - clinch
8. Miami - 9-6, won't see a post-season
9. Pittsburgh - 6 and 9
10. San Fran - choked

I'd say one side of the ball doesn't win it, so how can one aspect of one side mean anything more?... though it may mean the world in the post-season

	22-12-2003 23:11									#116
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quote: and you are basing this on his record in 3 games... eekkk

No, last years record as well. Saying you can't count last year is simply trying to shield yourself from the obvious argument that Vick led a crappy team to the playoffs... and then beat the Pack in Lambeau in the playoffs. First time EVER that has happened.

quote: What I'm saying is that even though Portis and Smith had great rushing totals against the Bears, they still didn't do **** to help their team win.

Which is bullshit. Of course they did. The rest of the team didn't pick up the slack. As stated, rushing doesn't just move the chains, but gives you clock managment and keeps your D (and their O) off the field.

quote: Not this season...

Why not? Portis has a 5.5, Lewis has 5.4, and then everyone else over 1000 yards is at 5.0 or less (Priest Holms is at 4.6). Definetly eye-popping.

	22-12-2003 23:56									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Oh, and can anyone tell me why ppl were chanting "Aikman Sucks" during the game? I know he was in the booth, but what does Philly have against him?

Gee I don't know? Could it be that the Cowboys have been our main rival in the NFC East for decades? Anything having to do with Cowboys past or present fires up Eagles fans. Giants and Redskins fans I've talked to feel the same way about the Cowboys.. Philly fans are just more vocal about it.

	22-12-2003 23:59									#118
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yeah but Aikman's been out of it for years.

Damn bastards cheered when Irvin almost broke his neck in Philly.

	23-12-2003 00:05									#119
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quote: yeah but Aikman's been out of it for years.

No one every said Philly fans were smart .

	23-12-2003 00:32									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yeah but Aikman's been out of it for years. Damn bastards cheered when Irvin almost broke his neck in Philly.

If Aikman had played for Philly he would have been the most popular player in the history of the franchise.

You're right that Irvin incident did suck. But show me a team whose fans don't have some kind of skeleton in their closet. It is ridiculous to assume that those fans represent the whole body of Philly fans. Sports talk radio in this city has certain personalities that are successful in whipping that certain segment of fans without brains into a frenzy and those are the ones that make the headlines...

Once one of our teams wins a world championship you will see far fewer of these incidents......

Did you ever go without sex for more than a couple of weeks? Do you remember how cranky you were until you finally got some? That's what it is like for Philly Fans. If world championship = sex , here's the length of time we've been without sex: 28 years for hockey, 23 years for baseball, 20 years for basketball, 43 years for football...