Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Humiliating" the Arabs? And if so... so what?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4   5   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 11:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#61 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 14:28 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#62 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
I was just bullsh*tting with you.


I'm one of those types that need graphical clues, 'cause I'm still mastering the ability to discern between "bullshitting" and seriousness, especially in topics like this one.

Gatekeeper

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 14:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#63 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Because the issue that you're dismissing with "So what?" has been responsible for the rise of ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic movements in the Middle East, you ****ing moron


No, it hasn't.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 14:54 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#64 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Hmm. Oops. I thought "bullsh*tting" was automatically censored.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 14:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#65 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The censor is weird like that. **** is censored, but shitty isn't. I don't even know if bullshit or bullshitting are censored...

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 14:59 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#66 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Nope, they're not. I'm going to bed now, so as to provoke a mod into interceding 'cause of unintentional cussing on our part.

Gatekeeper

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 15:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#67 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, if they haven't censored it, then it isn't really a cuss word, is it?

orange is offline orange
Emperor
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 15:44 Visit orange's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#68 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Drake, dear, do a comprehensive study on the role of Colonialism and Imperialism in Asia and Africa, and then get back to me - mmkay?

The concept of Cultural and Religious Nationalism in these countries should not be cast aside as a baseless phenomenon that we can 'liberate' them of. Employing that kind of thinking will only serve to make this type of ideology more fierce.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 15:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#69 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Drake, dear, do a comprehensive study on the role of Colonialism and Imperialism in Asia and Africa, and then get back to me - mmkay?


Why? I thought we were talking about the Arab world, where ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic movements are the product of oppressive home-grown regimes, not "humiliation" by the West.

You at least need to be correct before you turn the condecension on...

orange is offline orange
Emperor
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 15:53 Visit orange's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#70 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Why? I thought we were talking about the Arab world


We are. Where do you think it is besides Asia and Africa?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 15:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#71 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Asia and Africa encompass a hell of a lot more than just the Arab world. Studying the role of colonialism and imperialism in Mozambique or the Phillipines does the equivalent of ****-all for your knowledge of events with the Arab world.

orange is offline orange
Emperor
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 16:03 Visit orange's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#72 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Not really, but regardless I was speaking more specifically of the Arab world. The rest of Africa and Asia will simply supplement what you learn when you read about Algeria and Iran, and in fact, compliment it.

There's a wealth of information out there regarding French humiliation of Algerians and their culture, and how 150 years of that led to the rise of a patriarchal fundamentalist reactionary party which was democratically elected to power.

But hey, so what?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 16:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#73 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Iran, and in fact, compliment it.




Iran isn't even Arab...

orange is offline orange
Emperor
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 16:49 Visit orange's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#74 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

no, but I'd imagine that you would recognize the connection between the Arab world and a state that borders it which is dominated by Islam.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 23:02 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#75 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Humiliating&quot; the Arabs? And if so... so what? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
And on the same day the pride of the Arab world, the great and brave Hussein, was captured by evil imperialist forces, too!


etc.

I resent the implication that "we" leftists didn't want Saddam to take the big fall.

When I heard he'd been captured I practically did a little dance.

So watch the generalizations.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 21-12-2003 23:05 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#76 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

BTW, this coming from somebody who remains vehemently against the decision by the US to go to war in Iraq, but I'm definitely happy when it generates benefits like seeing a **** like Saddam in custody.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 03:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#77 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
BTW, this coming from somebody who remains vehemently against the decision by the US to go to war in Iraq, but I'm definitely happy when it generates benefits like seeing a **** like Saddam in custody.


At times I think there is no principled opposition to wars of this kind. It seems that the opposition is highly dependent upon the political party proposing the intervention.

Kissinger (and many other Republicans) opposed Clinton's war against Milosovic, and gave a lot of cogent reasons why we should not intervene. But the end result has been good, making a lie of the initial opposition by Kissinger and may other Republicans. I assume they would say, just as much as you have here KH, that they were right in their opposition to the war but were glad with the result.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 03:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#78 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Most of the threads you make are ME or Arab related.


That's not true. I make lots of threads which aren't ME related but those tend to sink like a rock while my middleeast threads seem to attract a bit more attention.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 03:49
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#79 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Humiliating&quot; the Arabs? And if so... so what? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
To summarize: American imperialism is threatening; economic vassalization is humiliating. Given America's foreign policy, both sentiments are not unjustified.

Guess what's going to happen in Iraq: the money of the reconstruction will go back to the US through profits. Iraqis will likely get the low-ranking jobs while foreign engineers direct the whole thing. Oil companies will import their own worker and have them live in rich and enclosed quarters to protect them against Iraqi resentment (which can only rise from such actions).


You have a point about Arabs/Iraqis feeling like the US/UK is acting in an Imperial fashion and that they feel threatened by this though this is more preception then reality. Still, an interesting point. How do we change this while still accomplishing vital national goals such as eliminating terrorist supporting governments & while supporting pro-western/pro-capitalist ME governments?

You are also right that in order to equip Iraqi production facilities with the latest equipment and technology trained foreign experts will have to be brought in. Iraq is a very poorly educated country & they've been isolated from international business by 13 years of sanctions and 35 years of government nationalization during which the whole industry stagnated. 42% of the Iraqi population is illiterate, 12% have graduated from high school, and 4% have a college degree so businesses just aren't going to find that many trained experts in any given career field & foreign workers will have to be brought in until locals can be trained. Educating enough workers in the relavent fields will likely take a generation but this approach has worked in Asia and Latin America and now both of those places are largely self-sufficent in technical expertise. Compare that to how things were in 1945.

BTW there aren't going to be any net profits from the US/UK involvement in Iraq. These sorts of things always cost more then you make out of them and everyone knows that. Ergo the reason they are doing it is not profits.

Last edited by Oerdin on 22-12-2003 at 03:56

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 04:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#80 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by orange
Because the issue that you're dismissing with "So what?" has been responsible for the rise of ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic movements in the Middle East, you fucking moron


My point is these people were already ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic before and they will continue to be so no matter what we do. It is a characterizing trait of their culture.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 04:14 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#81 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Silly silly thread

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 04:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#82 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Humiliating&quot; the Arabs? And if so... so what? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I resent the implication that "we" leftists didn't want Saddam to take the big fall.

When I heard he'd been captured I practically did a little dance.

So watch the generalizations.


Of course all leftists don't feel the same way about a given event. My point is that I hgave seen several leftists in the media complain exactly as I detailed in the first post. I can think of no way better way to lump these people together other then by identifying their common political characteristics.

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
Emperor
Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 04:39 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#83 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
My point is these people were already ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic before and they will continue to be so no matter what we do. It is a characterizing trait of their culture.


Sure, the best thing is to reduce it down on an integrative, unchangeable and everlasting part of pan-arab culture. Arabs will always be ultra-reactionary religious and xenophobic unless they are either all dead or americanized... That's a really silly argument. "No matter what we do" seems to be a berserk attitude of you wanting to see all Arabs dead.
Care to point out:
Why can't their attitude change? Are all Mid-Eastern people like that? Wouldn't you agree that the fundamentalist movements are GROWING in a frightening way in the past decade? Should we either carefully examine and try to understand the reasons (like taking into account Arab "sensibility" and identity problems) or is it better to view it as the effect of something unchangeable in the Arab culture (or even nature?)?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 06:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#84 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Where's MtG to set you all straight on the origins of fundamentalist movements in the Arab world? I want to hear some more analysis of Qutb...

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 22-12-2003 07:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#85 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Please tell me how you would change the culture of 500 million people who don't want their culture changed.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 23-12-2003 01:05 Visit MrFun's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#86 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Humiliating&quot; the Arabs? And if so... so what? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


etc.

I resent the implication that "we" leftists didn't want Saddam to take the big fall.

When I heard he'd been captured I practically did a little dance.

So watch the generalizations.


diddo, KH

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 23-12-2003 01:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#87 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I wonder why Oerdin has such an Arab hangup?



Can I say find that response a tad personal? I have been using the utmost restraint to avoid pointing out that certain posters (im not thinking of you in particular Ge, so much as some of our European friends) have an "Israeli hangup" or even more broadly "a Jewish hangup" but i know that hinting at antisemitism in that manner is a hot button for many, and so ive self-censored. If Oerdin has an interest in the arab world, at a time when over a 100,000 US troops are in an arab country, and when the US is in a global war against an organization whose top leadership is composed of arabs (principally Egyptians and Saudis, in case anyone was thinking im confusing arabs and muslims) I hardly see that as evidence of a hangup.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 23-12-2003 at 02:03

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 23-12-2003 01:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#88 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Humiliating&quot; the Arabs? And if so... so what? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


etc.

I resent the implication that "we" leftists didn't want Saddam to take the big fall.

When I heard he'd been captured I practically did a little dance.

So watch the generalizations.


I would also point out that some leftists supported the coalition actions to liberate Iraq, notably Christopher Hitchens and Paul Berman.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 23-12-2003 01:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#89 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Wouldn't you agree that the fundamentalist movements are GROWING in a frightening way in the past decade? Should we either carefully examine and try to understand the reasons (like taking into account Arab "sensibility" and identity problems) or is it better to view it as the effect of something unchangeable in the Arab culture (or even nature?)?


actually, pace both yourself (above) and Oerdin, Islamic fundamentalism was growing more in the 1980's, but was declining in the '90s, notably in Egypt and Algeria, and even in Sudan. Its takeover of Afghanistan was largely a response to local factors (disorders among warlords from 1992 to 1995) To a great extent Al Qaeedas attack on the US was a response to this decline, an alternate strategy for fundamentalism, given that attacks on regimes in the region were failing.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 23-12-2003 01:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#90 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Lancer




Iraqis dancing in the streets for joy over the actions of a republican administration is not politicly correct, so the left finds something to ***** about.


Actually, I think it was the actions of 4ID. The "republican administration" were all back at their desks chocking their chickens, like usual.

 
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4   5   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32.
Apolyton Time is 00:32.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0748 seconds (93.80% PHP - 6.20% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net