20-12-2003 23:36									#1
	Is the Heroic Epic worth it? (vs useful early wonders) Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm playing as the Aztecs and got a leader very early. In the first 25-30 turns I had a leader.

Wondering if I should hold onto him and research to the temple of artemis or build an army, fight, then build Heroic Epic.

My last 2 games the Heroic Epic did nothign for me and I never got another leader..even with ALOT of fighting.

Just wonderign hwo you all view the Heroic Epic? Medioce? Great? Sub-Par? Not worth it?

Seems like a big risk to me to burn a leader on this (to make an army so I can build the Epic).

	20-12-2003 23:42									#2
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I play on Emperor BTW..

	21-12-2003 00:06									#3
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Not sure what the Temple has to do with it, you can't rush it with a MGL. So making an army is usually my choice. That has nothing to do with the Epic though. I no longer consider it to be a big deal, but I will build it as soon as it I get a chance. By that I mean, with a city that is strong and has nothing better to do.

The reason to make the army is not to be able to build the Epic, but to kick some butt. Armies are now a big unit saver, as they are more powerful than the indiviual units by a wide margin in C3C.

	21-12-2003 00:10									#4
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I just got the game and haven't read all the changes. Just learned MGL's don't rush wonders anymore.

After browsing the forums for the past 20 minutes, I just learned how good armies are now so I guess it's a no brainer to build an army. They improved them by leaps and bounds.

What are MGL's good for now besides armies and small wonder rushes (Forbidden Palace)?

Last edited by Artifex on 21-12-2003 at 00:15

	21-12-2003 00:57									#5
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No, the Heroic Epic isn't worth it early compared to 200-shield cost wonders so that shouldn't be why you choose an army. In my last game, I'm fairly sure I should have used my 2nd MGL to rush the Heroic Epic for this reason.

	21-12-2003 00:59									#6
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quote: What are MGL's good for now besides armies and small wonder rushes (Forbidden Palace)?

Armies and more armies

If I had more than one MGL pre-mil academy I would throw him into a palace/FP or just build another army. You can never have too many armies.

	21-12-2003 02:36									#7
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They can rush other structures, such as a cath or later a factory.
A great use can be to rush an airport in a new land. By that time you can make armies with the MA.

	23-12-2003 17:41									#8
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By the way, can an MGL rush a Palace? I.e. is a Palace considered a small wonder, or a great wonder?

USC

	23-12-2003 18:07									#9
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MGL can rush the Palace....

	23-12-2003 18:20									#10
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Yeah I've built the Heroic Epic dozens of times and have never noticed an increase in MGL production. I build the Heroic Epic because the ai usually beats me to the early wonders anyway. Then later with the academy I build up many armies. That's my reasoning anyway. I figure it is better to get some culture from the Heroic Epic than no culture at all.

	23-12-2003 21:07									#11
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The answer, IMO, is "it depends."

It was even more true in PTW, when GLs could rush great wonders. Now, there are basically two uses for them: armies and rushing small wonders (includes FP and Palace moves).

So, my Conquests leader decision tree looks like this:

Is my FP built and/or is my Palace where I want it? If yes, build army. If no, use leader to rush FP or Palace move.

Given the FP corruption bug in the original release, there is only 1 choice left: armies.

I wouldn't prioritize building the HE, especially not in the very early game when shields are soooo precious.

If I got a MGL in Conquests in the first 30 turns of the game, I'd probably make an army, but not load anything into it yet.

The weakest unit I'd put in an army would be archers. A 3x archer army gets these stats: 3.1.2, because of the army combat bonus.

Better yet, however, is the 3x swordsman army: 4.3.2.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 21:43									#12
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Much of the decision depends on playstyle as well. As Arrian mentioned, in unpatched games your choices basically come down to HE or another army (assuming you like the location of your palace).

My thinking is the first MGL should be used for an army. The combat bonus and extra movement are especially valuable in the ancient era. The real kicker, then, is the second MGL. If you either get a second one very early (ancient era or early medieval) or if you plan to do a lot of fighting, I'd recommend the HE. Since my early medieval period is usually one of fairly peaceful development, I'd rather invest the leader in the HE in hopes of getting more MGLs later.

It's certainly paid off in my Rise of Rome game. Used my first MGL to create an army of Legion IIs, used the second to rush the HE, and now I just got my third, which will be filled with Legion IIIs. I think those stats will be 7/6/2, starting with 15 hps. The only question is who to kill next.

	24-12-2003 05:36									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty You can never have too many armies.

* Theseus wipes a tear from his eye.

	24-12-2003 07:53									#14
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I like keeping the Heroic Epic as a "hot standby" in case I get beat to a wonder. I hate having to shift all the shield production to a city improvement and lose most of the shields....I do, in fact, cry when that occurs.

	24-12-2003 10:52									#15
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Many uses for HE.

	25-12-2003 14:52									#16
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I don't tend to make the heroic epic. So much other stuff to do.

	26-12-2003 00:55									#17
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I can usually make room for it, even if not promptly...200 shields is SOOO good

	28-12-2003 08:15									#18
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Yep. Kill 'em all with armies.
Generally more leaders allowing you to centralise your new found empire.

	29-12-2003 03:32									#19
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Let me ask this, an application called DES is a Civ combat calculator and has a box for HE? When I check it for the attacker its win rate goes up, why?

I do not see anything in the editor for C3C that would impart and bonus to the combat.

If it does make the chances of a victory higher, then that is enough reason to build it.

	29-12-2003 03:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty You can never have too many armies.

Unfortunately, there's a limit

* Kuciwalker dreams of the day when all cities will be free to have 4x vet MI armies with the MA bonus

	29-12-2003 06:15									#21
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That limit hurts!
it means no army in an OCC game, even you get a MGL.
You can imagine what I was doing when discovered that.

	29-12-2003 06:27									#22
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What changed in C3C that makes it necessary to have armies? In PTW you can easily rush the board without any.

	29-12-2003 06:57									#23
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Its not that you have to have them, they are just more worthwhile now. They have increased AD bonuses, can blitz, auto pillage, and I think a few other nice things now.

	29-12-2003 09:58									#24
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I've yet to hit the limit, so I'm ok with the limit

But then, I never gave the OCC a serious go, so then I would say that

	30-12-2003 23:07									#25
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Isn't the standard limit 1 army per 4 cities?

If you want to make an army in an occ game you would have to push the definition of occ a bit. Maybe build(or capture) 3 more cities in a hurry, build your army, then disband your new small cities...

	31-12-2003 06:37									#26
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It is
Plus, when I thought of giving it (OCC) a go, the Germans wanted to be pains - on CHIEFTAIN!
It kinda lost it's fun after that