23-12-2003 04:17									#31
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My experience has been that two civs have access to Ivory most of the time, but not always (last game). That is my view for most luxs, they are often in two civs lands, but rarely more than that.

Call it 1 in 5 chance for an 8 civ game, so is that a prblem or not?
Of course as Nathan said, you may be able to trade or take it from someone, so that puts in some what more likely that you could build the wonder.

All I asks is that if I don't have, that my neighbors don't either. Worse case for me is the biggest civ on my landmass gets the wonder and is not very close to me, so I have little chance to take it before they hit me with lots of AC's.

	23-12-2003 07:41									#32
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I'm with Dominae on this one. All Zeus tends to do is turn a civ which is already in a good position into an uber-civ. That's why I'd rather a lack of resources were desirable for building it.

If we could at least build it (without needing Ivory) and deny a civ with ivory the chance of free AC, it would be a lot better. In other words, everyone can build it, but only civs with Ivory can get the free AC. This should be possible I think?

	23-12-2003 16:33									#33
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So you want SoZ to produce ACs only when that civ have acces to ivory? Interesting concept, the AI would of course not 'understand' it, but they may still build it, thereby denying it to other civs.

	23-12-2003 16:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Funny you mentioned that, cause that exactly what have happened in ALL my games so far. (well, it's more like my only game actually... )

This may not mean much in the long term, but in all 3 of my Epic games I have not had Iron nor Horses near me. In two cases I got the SoZ and managed to secure at least one of the resources with my first civ conquest. I admit that it is sheer fantastic luck of the draw to have Ivory nearby those two games, but from the maps I have generated I have seen a disturbing number of occasions where neither of those critical early strat resources have been anywhere near me (or several other civs). Although no-one except perhaps those with nothing else to do but civ (oh how I wish!) or the programmers could claim to have seen enough C3C to make a proper call on the likelihood of these events, I am certainly beginning to believe lacking the starting resources is not an uncommon occurrence.

Dom, the greatest use for the SoZ is in just such the situation you describe. If you can think of other situations that ACavs are greatly useful please let me know! ACavs have decent stats, but they are hardly fantastic if you and/or your neighbours have Iron and Horses anyway. Despite my love of them though, I admit they redress the balance a little TOO far. I would still prefer to lessen the impact of ACavs however with a reduction of stats or a reduction in the frequency one is generated rather than the other solutions proposed here.

	23-12-2003 19:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Dom, the greatest use for the SoZ is in just such the situation you describe.

As you just stated, it's a very rare situation. Far more likely will be a situation where a civ has either Horses, Iron or both and access to Ivory. Just because it's great in the situation where it saves an Iron-less and Horse-less game does not mean it was meant to be that way. Are you suggesting that all Iron-less, Horse-less civs should start close to Ivory?

quote: If you can think of other situations that ACavs are greatly useful please let me know! ACavs have decent stats, but they are hardly fantastic if you and/or your neighbours have Iron and Horses anyway.

That's the way it's supposed to be. Not every Wonder needs to be "fantastic". Still, the Statue of Zeus is no slouch: it removes some military production burden on your cities and gives you an edge in combat. The fact that only one (rarely, two) civs have the ability to do this makes it luck-dependent and therefore unstrategic.

Luck-dependent things should be small and plentiful (like combat results, etc.) not large and rare (like the ability to build the Statue of Zeus).


Dominae

	23-12-2003 20:44									#36
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What about a combination of two of the relatively minor change options:

removing the hp bonus + increasing the shield cost to 300?
-or-
removing the hp bonus + increasing the # of turns between AC's (from 5 to 7 or 8).
-or increasing the shield cost + increasing the # of turns.

Stuff like that. Stuff that might make you think twice about whether or not it's worth building if you already have iron and horses (if it's 300 shields, perhaps you might rather toss that and try for the Pyramids).

-Arrian, AU lurker

p.s. I've gotten the SoZ once. It did feel overpowered.

I've also seen the SoZ turn an AI into a quasi-KIA (they were in the midst of becoming one when I hit them from behind and flattened them). Persia w/iron, horses + SoZ is nasty.

	23-12-2003 22:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by ducki No, no, no to horses. If you ever have a game where you don't have and can't get to horses, you'll understand my stringence.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt A definite no to changing the resource requirement to Horses. The SoZ's biggest advantage for me, and doubtless for others, is a second chance if you don't get Horses.

I edited the first post to include the widespread unpopularity of the 'SoZ requires horses' proposal.

(Sidenote: If I'd like to have a second chance, I wouldn't want this chance to be dependend on ivory. )

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The fact that ivory is required can add a number of strategic dimensions that would not exist if it were not required or if a more widely available resource were substituted ...With no more than we've played C3C thus far, it is far too early to write off the strategic dimensions of that requirement as uninteresting.

In my opinion, making a (unit-spawning!) wonder dependend on a luxury resource simply means replacing strategy with a game of dice. Neither is it fun to build the SoZ and steamroll the AI's on my continent, nor is it fun to cope with an AI that managed to build the SoZ while I had no ivory.

As for the argument 'limited experience with C3C's gameplay' - this is true for me and may be true for you as well, but I'm quite sure that Dominae (who was one of the first forum members to criticize SoZ's ivory requirement) was a beta tester.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian What about ... stuff that might make you think twice about whether or not it's worth building if you already have iron and horses (if it's 300 shields, perhaps you might rather toss that and try for the Pyramids). -Arrian, AU lurker p.s. I've gotten the SoZ once. It did feel overpowered.

I agree with you insofar as the SoZ may be even overpowered if available for everyone - that's why I edited my first post to include additional suggestions to tune this wonder down. But my main concern is not that SoZ is overpowered, but that its availability is largely dependend on luck. This is a bad design decision IMO, and needs to be changed.

To put it another way: If the Statue of Zeus didn't require any resource in the first place (like most of the Great Wonders under stock rules), and you would prefer to play under stock rules or in any case to 'change as little as possible' (part of the AU mod philosophy), what would be your main concern? That the SoZ should require ivory?

	23-12-2003 23:41									#38
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I guess you're right about the ivory requirement. If the stock game didn't have a resource requirement, adding one wouldn't even occur to me. My main concern would be cost-benifit (too little cost, to much benifit).

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 23:51									#39
	Re: AU mod: The Statue of Zeus Got spare money?

Rather than reduce the potency of SoZ and it's ivory requirement, why not introduce one or two new wonders similarly dependent on other luxuries, such that six or seven civs have an excellent chance at completing one of them.

For example, a new wonder could be 'The Praetorian Guard', available with Construction, requiring incense, and producing a 'Praetorian Guard' (!) every 5 turns, with stats [1,3,1, zone of control].

Regards,

Pete

	23-12-2003 23:58									#40
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Adding new wonders is a definite no-no for the AU mod. First, you'd have to download something whether or not you were playing from a savegame (the txt files) and second, it is a HUGE change to the game.

	24-12-2003 00:02									#41
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quote: I agree with you insofar as the SoZ may be even overpowered if available for everyone - that's why I edited my first post to include additional suggestions to tune this wonder down. But my main concern is not that SoZ is overpowered, but that its availability is largely dependend on luck. This is a bad design decision IMO, and needs to be changed.

Would it be possible to change it to a small wonder, remove the ivory requirement, and have it merely enable the building of ACav?
That seems a more strategic option for me.
Do I take a long time and expend a lot of shields building this enabler or do I just throw all those shields into units and do a little extreme pruning?

Is that even doable with the editor?

	24-12-2003 00:57									#42
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quote: Is that even doable with the editor?

I believe not.

	24-12-2003 00:58									#43
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No, it isn't. Only techs and resources, but not buildings/wonders can be a prereq for a unit.

(Okay, building armies is enabled with the Military Academy, but that's a specific editor flag - 'build armies without leader'.)

	24-12-2003 01:01									#44
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Btw, a wonder can also enable building units with the "Nuclear Weapon" flag, but I don't think we want to give that to Ancient Cav

	24-12-2003 01:09									#45
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Yep - aside from other unintended consequences, you'll need the Manhattan Project to build Ancient Cavalry.

	24-12-2003 01:58									#46
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Making it only allow AC, I like that Ducki. Nothing else changes, you still need Ivory, but it does not give units.

	24-12-2003 02:53									#47
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Well, if the editor can't give access to a unit, could it give a free, predetermined, "dummy" tech that enables building of ACav?

I realize it's getting convoluted now, and the point of it being a small wonder was it was no longer exclusive or chance-based - it was strategic(meaning remove the resource requirement) in the decision of how to spend all those shields.

Anyway, I guess adding a dummy tech just to be a gateway to ACav would invalidate the whole "no downloads" rule, eh?

Bummer, I thought I was on to something there.

	24-12-2003 03:58									#48
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quote: Well, if the editor can't give access to a unit, could it give a free, predetermined, "dummy" tech that enables building of ACav?

No.

	24-12-2003 07:19									#49
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I have not yet had ivory... What is this strange and wondrous thing you all the Statue of Zeus?

And seeing as I've played epic games as Maya and Scandy... who the heck is this guy Zeus? Did he write the epic poem in the PTWDG thread?



Leave it alone for the moment.

	24-12-2003 13:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I have not yet had ivory... What is this strange and wondrous thing you all the Statue of Zeus? And seeing as I've played epic games as Maya and Scandy... who the heck is this guy Zeus? Did he write the epic poem in the PTWDG thread? Leave it alone for the moment.

* MrWhereItsAt would agree with this over a hefty change, even if it meant he had to voluntarily withhold from building the SoZ

And BTW, I'm up to 4 games without at least one of Horses or Iron in my starting sphere of influence. The resource scarcity is a big change. Can I have some of your maps where you start with both of these, Dom?

	24-12-2003 16:08									#51
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Obviously the SOZ is unbelievably powerful. In my first game of C3C I was overrun by Ancient Cavalry, which opened my eyes to their power. My second and third games, I built the wonder and basicly won the game on it's back. In one game I started with Ivory in my starting city and opened like this:

Warrior
Warrior
Settler
Barracks
Spearman
SOZ

My second city became basicly my first city, and my capital built the SOZ. I overran the Greeks and Romans on my continent like they weren't even around. I never built another military unit the whole game except spearmen for cities, and won the game by domination in the early 900's AD.

The second game, I had to work a little harder for ivory, but again I managed to take the continent with almost no resistance well before 0AD. Spaeship win this time. This wonder makes an OOC conquest win not only possible, but quite probable on the mid-level settings.

I like the concept of these wonders... they play right into my hands as a builder. Free army, and culture from a wonder? Sounds like a plan. The only way I see this wonder not completely breaking the game is to have seven more equally powerful wonders with a luxury requirement. That way all the luxuries would be valuable and not just ivory. Perhaps some modder could either invent some new wonders of comparable power, or give some of the best wonders (Hoover/Pyramids, etc) luxury requirements. Unfortunately as it stands, even the power of the Pyramids is dwarfed by the hordes of knights rampaging around the ancient era.

Cheers.

Blitzer

	24-12-2003 18:05									#52
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I'm looking forward to hear any MP experience with this wonder. Maybe the best solution is to scrap the entire wonder?

	24-12-2003 23:13									#53
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They just chew up all ancient units with 5 or 6 HP. I did not run it in any calculators, but they are brutal to spears and archers. They do a number on any unforted swords as well.

	25-12-2003 12:57									#54
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I would vote to have it removed too ... it fits nicely into the Mesopotamia scenario (interestingly giving Barracks rather than A/Cav though) but I think it should never have made it into the 'main' game.

Knights Templar seems pretty balanced OTOH.

	26-12-2003 12:25									#55
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Well it's confirmed at least... OOC conquest wins are not only possible, but achievable on the first try. Conquered the world with a small pangea, one city. Had to cheat a bit becuse my OOC wasn't on the shore and my Pangea was actually 2 continents, but you get the idea. SOZ is an outrageously overpowered wonder, and whoever the Firaxis employee responsible for playtesting is, he should probably be fired.

Attachment: oocwin.zip
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	29-12-2003 20:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 They just chew up all ancient units with 5 or 6 HP. I did not run it in any calculators, but they are brutal to spears and archers. They do a number on any unforted swords as well.

If you're willing to accept high casualties, you can also use them as cannon fodder on Pike-defended cities, and even Musket-defended cities, though you're looking at greater than 50% casualties. And at that point, you're in a use 'em or lose 'em situation anyway.

I am still not convinced it's overpowered. It's a niche wonder, just like the Iron Works. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Maybe it should be a SW, then, and toned down a little bit.

Maybe I just don't see it as overpowered because I don't build it as early as some of you guys seem to be doing. By the time I have a dozen or two of these guys, I'm building knights already. I just don't see how you can get a large enough attack force early enough to make this as powerful as it seems, unless you beeline for it, in which case, we're balancing for a very specific, power-gamer technique.

I don't know. It just seems like a nice _little_ boost(or a second chance if lacking horses) in the games where I'm able to build it - not a gamebreaker.

	29-12-2003 22:42									#57
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If I have ivory, then I semi beeline. I will beeline for Write-Phil and then do Math. If I am unable to get contact for a long time with the other contient, I will probably have a lot of time for AC to be generated. I will make Metal the last tech before I bump to the next age.

The beauty of AC is they are great ancient age fighters and then they can be used as free shields later. Once Muskets are on the scene with knights and soon calv, I will start to retire them as free boost to builds. I get the shields and save the upkeep.

So I will get back my 200 shields for the wonder, have use of the troops and keep getting culture, how good is that?

	30-12-2003 03:15									#58
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On a Small map, they are a builder's dream. In my latest game as the Babylonians, I built a total of TWO spearmen. The rest of my army was AC's. This lasted until I got Knight's Templar. I didn't start actually building units until Nationalism

I even fought a small war with the Persians during the Ancient Era. We were seperated by the Byzantines though, so it was easy to just pick off the Immortals. It probably helped too that Greece was my only other neighbor.

	30-12-2003 05:27									#59
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skywalker you have to be careful not to get into the trap of not making horse type units and cats. You can find yourself going into the industrial age and having no calvs and no cannons.

You then have very little in the way of good attackers. The AC's will not fare well against musket/rifles. They are only ok when attacked by MI.

	02-01-2004 08:46									#60
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Dominae, I wanted to get your take on this:

I would like to suggest a different approach I haven't seen in the thread. Make ivory a strategic resource, and the game renders a ratio of ivory per civ that evens out the chances of getting it.

Since ivory has been so rare on my C3C maps, I don't think that changing its status would have an impact on normal strategy in regards to net access to luxury resources.

This might seem major, but I think this idea would be less drastic than the drift of the discussion so far, to wit, chucking out the wonder entirely. Tossing out wonders just feels as MODish as adding new ones (an emotional reaction, I admit)

alternative suggestion: making it a small wonder and changing the unit or strength of the unit it produces. that way it could be "A" military-producing wonder without being "THE"! military-unit-producing wonder.