21-12-2003 07:31									#1
	The new, improved Great Wall Got spare money?

The Great Wall now provides walls in every city on the continent, in the same way Sun Tzu does with barracks. It used to double the defensive value of walls, but has now lost this ability.

I always liked the cheap useful GW, but this change interests me as well. Instant walls in freshly captured cities for one. Also, does anyone know if the walls can be knocked down by arty? When do they get rebuilt? Arty has been tweaked to hit only walls first, so even if they are rebuilt at the start of your turn the enemy has to waste arty fire every time to knock them down.

Safe cheeky border pushing and easily defendable cities that can be placed in enemy land are two other benefits. Bring a settler along with your stack and drop a city when they need to heal. You can always abandon it if your army needs to move on.

The price has gone up by a whopping 50%, but this is definetly a wonder that needs to be looked at again.

	21-12-2003 12:11									#2
	Re: The new, improved Great Wall Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Snotty Also, does anyone know if the walls can be knocked down by arty? When do they get rebuilt? Arty has been tweaked to hit only walls first, so even if they are rebuilt at the start of your turn the enemy has to waste arty fire every time to knock them down.

IIRC, someone reported there was a bug currently and the arty was demolishing other (non-wall) city improvements instead of the (virtual) walls.

	21-12-2003 12:15									#3
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The GW is quite powerful now (and has been in the AU Mod for some time). Although I wouldn't say it is a "must have" wonder, it is not, IMHO, the wonder whose best description for the human player is "dammit, I miscalculated the wonder cascade and now I'm stick with this?"

Catt

	21-12-2003 15:40									#4
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I modded PTW to work this way a long time ago. Much more useful than the way it was.

Apart from the bug about targeting walls first, the other thing that worries me is the number of bugs patched in PTW that seem to have crept back. For a long time there was still a benefit from walls for cities over size 6 in PTW. Does anyone know if that one is back?

	22-12-2003 04:30									#5
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its a nice wonder, too bad the walls don't remain there after metalurgy.

does the temple of artemis behave the same way? (free temples dissapear once obsolete)

	22-12-2003 04:46									#6
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Yes, they do.



But they're very useful in the ancient times to secure your borders, specially if you have a lot of cities

	22-12-2003 10:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Apart from the bug about targeting walls first, the other thing that worries me is the number of bugs patched in PTW that seem to have crept back. For a long time there was still a benefit from walls for cities over size 6 in PTW. Does anyone know if that one is back?

Erm, this was fixed in the v1.21f patch for PtW, the second-to-last patch. This really shouldn't be in C3C if it was fixed way back then.

	23-12-2003 07:58									#8
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Do I understand this correctly... you can knock down "virtual walls" that are in place because of the Great Wall?

i've never seen that happen...

	23-12-2003 10:04									#9
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I can certainly answer this - I did a little test on it to see what happened when you lost your Palace...

Shogun Gunner - you CAN'T knock down those phantom walls. But since the game recognises that Walls are in effect, Artillery will attempt to take the Walls down first. This leads to every improvement (including Wonders and the Palace!) being eliminated before any units lose hp in a city with these phantom walls.

This is the problem with making Artillery go for Walls first over all else.

	24-12-2003 02:20									#10
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oh, okay..that makes sense. I was about to say that I never broke down the virtual walls Well, that makes it difficult to destroy troops now doesn't it?

	24-12-2003 02:43									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Erm, this was fixed in the v1.21f patch for PtW, the second-to-last patch. This really shouldn't be in C3C if it was fixed way back then.

Actually 'fixed' in PTW1.27f, at least according to readme.

	25-12-2003 17:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tacit_Exit Actually 'fixed' in PTW1.27f, at least according to readme.

Odd - this is from my (newly reinstalled) readme for PtW:

quote: Fixes in v1.21f: *Fixed bug which caused walls not to be obsoleted by growing from a town to a city.

Are you sure?

	20-02-2004 21:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Shogun Gunner - you CAN'T knock down those phantom walls. But since the game recognises that Walls are in effect, Artillery will attempt to take the Walls down first. This leads to every improvement (including Wonders and the Palace!) being eliminated before any units lose hp in a city with these phantom walls. This is the problem with making Artillery go for Walls first over all else.

BUMP. Somebody knows if this problem has been fixed? I have't seen anything about it

	21-02-2004 17:59									#14
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There is one thing I don't understand about obsolete Wonders. If the Temple of Artemis puts a temple in every city and the Great Wall puts a wall aroiund every city, then why do those temples and walls suddenly disappear when ToA and GW become obsolete?

Problem:
(1) The game acts as if the actual physical temple exists in those cities that didn't have actual physical temples before ToA, except that I can't sell temples. So why do these virtual temples cease to exist later? Do the people become so disillusioned by losing their faith that they tear down these virtual temples (but not ones they built on their own, or the Temple of Artemis)? The same situation applies to city walls provided by the Great Wall. I could understand if metallurgy made all walls built before it ineffectual, so that all walls disappeared and had to be replaced by stronger ones, but the only ones that disappear are the ones provided by the GW.
(2) I can't build actual temples or walls in cities that didn't have them before while ToA or GW are active to protect myself from losing them later, so when the new tech which makes them obsolete comes along I have to run around building lost temples and walls instead of concentrating on new improvements.
(3) While ToA is active I can build cathedrals (which require temples) when the city has only the virtual temple provided by ToA, so when ToA expires I have a city with a cathedral but no temple, and if I'm in the middle of building a temple I can finish it (?).

Possible solution:
Is it feasible (or even currently possible) to flag a Wonder so that any city improvements it generates become permanent, but once it becomes obsolete it no longer generates these improvements in newly-acquired cities? I know I can change the Wonder flag to have it never expire, but that's not what I mean, it makes sense for certain wonders to lose their effect on new development after certain advances.

	21-02-2004 22:41									#15
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Well, I think that the idea with the construction of the Great Wall or Artemis is that they create the "effect" in your empire as if walls or temples were constructed in all your cities, but they does not construct physically one of them in every city. So once it becomes obsolete the effect is lost

	22-02-2004 04:09									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Niessuh Well, I think that the idea with the construction of the Great Wall or Artemis is that they create the "effect" in your empire as if walls or temples were constructed in all your cities, but they does not construct physically one of them in every city. So once it becomes obsolete the effect is lost

I understand the concept of "effect". But since the improvement isn't really there, why can't I build the real improvement in anticipation of losing the virtual one. If I'm in a war it would be nice to be able to build walls in my frontline cities, knowing that the about-to-be-discovered metallurgy is going to leave these cities without walls in 3 turns.

Side note: I understand that if my enemies discover metallurgy and have more potent means of destroying walls I should lose the effect of the GW, but if I am the one with that knowledge, why do I lose the benefit? Am I going to destroy my own walls?

	22-02-2004 13:52									#17
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Yeah, I agree with you

	23-02-2004 08:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Are you sure?

Here is the bug report I posted at Civfanatics in the (now archived) PTW 1.21f bug forum, and here is the test I did to discover the bug, using 1.21f.

I have no idea why your readme has 1.21f indicated as the version where the fix was made, as I clearly remember checking the 1.27f readme to determine if the bug had been fixed, which it had.

	24-02-2004 18:28									#19
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Weird! What does everyone else's readme say? v1.21f like mine or v1.27f like Tacit_Exit's?

	24-02-2004 18:36									#20
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Tacit - just read your test thread. Are you certain of which version you were using? I may test this out a bit when I get home and can do so, with v1.21 and with v1.27f

	25-02-2004 07:33									#21
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Just had a thought. . .
Wasn't the Euro-English 1.21f delayed somewhat? (I have an Australian PTW so used the US patch). If so, perhaps some of the fixes of the US 1.27f were incorporated into the Euro-English 1.21f, hence 'your' 1.21 may well have had the wall fix, where 'mine' didn't.

Just checked the US and Euro-Non English 1.27f fixes list at civfanatics, and it indicates the fix for walls not obseleting (3rd last entry).

	25-02-2004 11:50									#22
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Tacit - what does you readme say for v1.21? Is it the same as mine there? And I have always opted for the American patch - actually I am not sure what difference there is between an American English patch and a non-American English patch. Is there region coding or something for Europe and the US, as there is none here, to the best of my knowledge.

	25-02-2004 14:39									#23
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I can't check my 1.21f readme as I don't have it anymore; did a hd format before I installed Conquests and I don't know where to get it now.

	25-02-2004 15:53									#24
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Just look at the lastest PtW readme, that's where I got the change from. Changes should all be organised into the different versions: v1.17f, v1.21f etc.

	25-02-2004 20:18									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let me chime in that, specifically with ToA, I really wish I -could- build real temples in expectation that the virtual ones will disappear after the discovery of education. Particularly if I'm going for a culture victory and want my temples to have doubled culture production in the industrial era.

My purpose of the post though:

The wonder flag "doubles city defenses" is now unused by anything (in an epic game anyway). What would people suggest as a wonder to use this flag? I wonder, does it also double the defense of a citizen defense force? If so, maybe that's why they decided to change it.

(Yes, I'm one of those people who would like to see the double effects of the marketplaces/harbors/police stations split into separate buildings too.)

	26-02-2004 15:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MqsTout (Yes, I'm one of those people who would like to see the double effects of the marketplaces/harbors/police stations split into separate buildings too.)

We're a bit OT here I guess, but the thread is awaiting someone with different versions of the patch to post on what patch their readme says introduced the GW change.

Anyway, what doubling effects do you mean? None of those improvements double anything, unless you mean a flag to double the effects of each/all of those improvements that is unused for the Epic game.

	26-02-2004 17:36									#27
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Ok, I just downloaded and applied PTW 1.27f to get access to the readme, and it has the wall fix indicated under Fixes in v1.21f!?

But there are 2 sections of 'Fixes in v1.21f', and the fixes/changes list posted at Civfanatics here when 1.27f was released indicates it was a 1.27f change!?

I think its a readme typo.

	26-02-2004 18:59									#28
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The wonder flag in the editor that used to be on the great wall "doubles city defense" is no longer used, since the GW now provides city walls to all cities. I was just fishing for ideas of what could possibly be modded in by people to use this flag.

	27-02-2004 01:32									#29
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I always found it strange that metallurgy makes the GW obsolete when the owner gets it and not when his enemies get it

A better solution would be to bring back the 'ignore city walls' flag from civ2...Give it to all artillery from cannons and forwards...and all modern era units in general.

	27-02-2004 11:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tacit_Exit Ok, I just downloaded and applied PTW 1.27f to get access to the readme, and it has the wall fix indicated under Fixes in v1.21f!? But there are 2 sections of 'Fixes in v1.21f', and the fixes/changes list posted at Civfanatics here when 1.27f was released indicates it was a 1.27f change!? I think its a readme typo.

Aha! Could well be, as I have only been able to look at the readme and not actually test anything as has been done at CFC (not that it mentions which version the test was for).

bongo - not a bad idea, as most Artillery can only weaken defenders and not kill them. This would make Cannons more effective - personally I think they are undereffective right now, but of course some may disagree. By the time of Arty I guess you'd expect Walls to be of limited value as well, seeing as Arty can always fire OVER the defenses.