21-12-2003 12:44									#1
	Religious versus Secular law Enter the AD-FREE zone

I Saw a post in tehe french thread and it got me thinking

would you obey religious law over state law?

I sure would, and I would hope that most others would also

note that for those of you who are atheists, or the like

you could probably replace religious law with ethical law

for example, if the state asked me to assist in the murder of people, I would refuse (I don't think that what the military does is neccesarily murder (Although at times it is, and I am not anxious to serve my country in that manner))

Jon Miller

	21-12-2003 12:48									#2
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actually 4 and 1 are too similar

consider 4 to be, religious law, and religious law is the same as state law

Jon Miller

	21-12-2003 12:57									#3
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There's no such thing as ethical law. Ethics is about what you ought and ought not do, it's neither binding nor forcing.

I reckon your quesiton is something like, "If a law of the land is in conflict with your own ethics (or religion), will you follow it?"

	21-12-2003 12:59									#4
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The problem with such question is there are two broad categories of laws, one forbids you to do certain things, and the other allows you to do certain things. For example, the law the criminalise the use of nacotics and other drugs vs the law that allows people to have abortions legally.

	21-12-2003 13:06									#5
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I always piss myself laughing with the interpretations of words. Especially when it comes to religion.

Example:

I am a good chistian. I shalt not murder.


*KABOOOOM*

that was killing.

and besides haven't you read in the holy scriptures edafion blah blah blah The saint whatever kicked the whatever's behind to protect his goat?


It's amazing. But there can be no reasoning with dogmatism.
Simply view each person for who he really is and write his religious or not believes where the sun doesn't shine

	21-12-2003 13:06									#6
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I agree I could have made the poll beter

Jon Miller

	21-12-2003 13:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I always piss myself laughing with the interpretations of words. Especially when it comes to religion. Example: I am a good chistian. I shalt not murder. *KABOOOOM* that was killing. and besides haven't you read in the holy scriptures edafion blah blah blah The saint whatever kicked the whatever's behind to protect his goat? It's amazing. But there can be no reasoning with dogmatism. Simply view each person for who he really is and write his religious or not believes where the sun doesn't shine

many christians, after careful study, consider murder to be any killing

other christians. also after careful study, consider murder to be seperate from killing

my denomination has a lot of each (in the past, we were more strongly in the murder=killing camp)

I can see the arguments of muder=killing, but am currently in the other camp

anyways, interpret the poll as you like, and VOTE

Jon Miller

	21-12-2003 13:14									#8
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I shold have had whether you were american or european also part of the poll

Jon Miller

	21-12-2003 13:24									#9
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Hopefully, I'd obey my ethics over the law. I'm not saying that I necessarily would - for instance, if I were threatened with punishment by the state I might aquiesce into doing something I consider mildly immoral.

	21-12-2003 13:32									#10
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this thread and poll is confusing.

I don't care where the law comes from (either secular or religious).

A law is a law. I make my best efforts to obey it (except silly laws like speeding and carrying a concealed weapon ). If the law is dumb, then I will vote it out if I can.

	21-12-2003 13:34									#11
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eh. this is a fuzzy question.

if bush came up to me and said "kill these 5 little girls, or i'll kill you." i'd probably die for them. if he said "kill these 5 little girls, or you will die with them.", i'd probably kill them.

what other situations could arise that are morally objectionale that don't involve murder / harming another?

	21-12-2003 14:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this thread and poll is confusing. I don't care where the law comes from (either secular or religious). A law is a law. I make my best efforts to obey it (except silly laws like speeding and carrying a concealed weapon ). If the law is dumb, then I will vote it out if I can.

The problem with religious laws such as sharia is that you cannot vote them out. The sharia unfortunately made Islam a threat for the democracy.

	21-12-2003 14:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX eh. this is a fuzzy question. if bush came up to me and said "kill these 5 little girls, or i'll kill you." i'd probably die for them. if he said "kill these 5 little girls, or you will die with them.", i'd probably kill them.

Could not you kill him instead ?

	21-12-2003 15:18									#14
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quote: A law is a law. I make my best efforts to obey it... If the law is dumb, then I will vote it out if I can.

Me too

	22-12-2003 02:51									#15
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Since religion is the product of dopey mysticism and unproven mythical concepts... I would not respect it at all.

I have my own set of ethics that I follow, but I would respect most "state" law just because I might not want to go to prison or whatever. But, I won't follow the law just because it is the law. Laws are written by humans, hence, they aren't perfect. But at least the law that is written by a democratic government has more sense then the law of people claiming to be part of God's bureaucracy.

	22-12-2003 05:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I always piss myself laughing with the interpretations of words. Especially when it comes to religion. Example: I am a good chistian. I shalt not murder. *KABOOOOM* that was killing. and besides haven't you read in the holy scriptures edafion blah blah blah The saint whatever kicked the whatever's behind to protect his goat? It's amazing. But there can be no reasoning with dogmatism. Simply view each person for who he really is and write his religious or not believes where the sun doesn't shine

Is the quality of crack in Greece that low? I will go down on the street corner and send you some good stuff ok

	22-12-2003 05:09									#17
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In other words: Spray reads a clearly defined fully logical position of paiktis, he gets shocked, disagrees and offers him drugs

	22-12-2003 05:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 In other words: Spray reads a clearly defined fully logical position of paiktis, he gets shocked, disagrees and offers him drugs

Sorry i just got lost when you mentioned the saints and goats. and figured you got some bad stuff again..

	22-12-2003 05:21									#19
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It's all in the holy scriptures, not my fault! But it was cosmetics to illustrate the point: religion means nothing by itself. Each man has a core moral and that's what defines him. He can bend whatever he wants to justify his own moral code. And it's by it, itself, that he should be judged, not wether he believes in little Jesus or the blue Unicorn

	22-12-2003 05:24									#20
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Your right..

All the religion in the world only goes so far. It is up to the individual in the end.

	22-12-2003 05:28									#21
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quote: It's all in the holy scriptures, not my fault! But it was cosmetics to illustrate the point: religion means nothing by itself. Each man has a core moral and that's what defines him. He can bend whatever he wants to justify his own moral code. And it's by it, itself, that he should be judged, not wether he believes in little Jesus or the blue Unicorn

Very well put. The organization does not matter, but the individual belief does.

	22-12-2003 05:53									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There's no such thing as ethical law. Ethics is about what you ought and ought not do, it's neither binding nor forcing.

Is ther not something called natural law?

Maybe that is Man is naturally peaceful and decent, and the Law is simply there to ensure it stays that way when times are rough.

	22-12-2003 05:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Very well put. The organization does not matter, but the individual belief does.

So Man does not have a natural inclination to form groups in order to ensure survival? Saying that the organization does not matter, is like saying that the Family does not matter. Extend that to Clan, Tribe and Nation.

	22-12-2003 05:58									#24
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ethical law

	22-12-2003 06:23									#25
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quote: Saying that the organization does not matter, is like saying that the Family does not matter

That's right. The family does not matter when it comes to the individual. The individual doesn't believe what his family believes, he believes what he, himself, believes.

	22-12-2003 06:32									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Saying that the organization does not matter, is like saying that the Family does not matter That's right. The family does not matter when it comes to the individual. The individual doesn't believe what his family believes, he believes what he, himself, believes.

So if each individual family member believes that, then the family members still have individual beliefs? Would they not have a commonly shared belief in the individual?

	22-12-2003 07:00									#27
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quote: So if each individual family member believes that, then the family members still have individual beliefs?

Of course. Each individual has their own beliefs. Even if that belief is shared with others, that doesn't lead to a lack of individual belief.

	22-12-2003 08:15									#28
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quote: For example, the law the criminalise the use of nacotics and other drugs vs the law that allows people to have abortions legally.

I always found that "amusing", want to smoke pot but want to kill your baby

As for the question, neither. There are secular laws that are immoral and there are religious laws that are immoral. So a 3rd (or 2nd I suppose) factor or principle has to be added to either secular or religious laws - how about freedom? If the secular or religious law violates freedom, then it should be looked upon with a grain of salt and require justification beyond "I don't like that".

	22-12-2003 08:36									#29
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I believe that's what he means by ethical law.

	22-12-2003 08:43									#30
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Ethics vary like religion