23-12-2003 12:10									#61
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quote: Yeah, I was thinking Korematsu, though the SCOTUS will NEVER actually cite the case as precedent, even though it is still good law

And with good reason. Everyone who actually reads the decision knows that it's idiotic, and everyone who doesn't read the decision but knows enough to know that it essentially upheld a law excluding people based on race would be up in arms because of racism.

Quite frankly, many to most of the SCOTUS decisions during WW2, and even more so during WW1, dealing with government actions against citizens because of the war, were blatantly wrong, and simply a result of war hysteria. Korematsu is a good example for WW2, and for WW1, Schenk v US or Debs v US.

	23-12-2003 14:04									#62
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These rulings caused a lot of joy around the world. There is a feeling the United States has lost touch with its fundamental values whilst Gitmo exists.

	23-12-2003 18:25									#63
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quote: Everyone who actually reads the decision knows that it's idiotic, and everyone who doesn't read the decision but knows enough to know that it essentially upheld a law excluding people based on race would be up in arms because of racism.

Yet it is still good law and has never come close to be overturned.

	23-12-2003 18:32									#64
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quote: There is a feeling the United States has lost touch with its fundamental values whilst Gitmo exists.

Hey, we're just trying to be like our buddies in Australia. First, we put the terrorists in detention camps. Once we've got the hang of that, we can move on to illegal immigrants like you lot. You have so much to teach us...

	23-12-2003 20:34									#65
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quote: Yet it is still good law and has never come close to be overturned.

Granted, but I don't see how Korematsu could realistically be applied today because of the problems with it. Sure, it COULD be, but as you said, it probably will not be.

	23-12-2003 22:28									#66
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And with good reason. Everyone who actually reads the decision knows that it's idiotic, and everyone who doesn't read the decision but knows enough to know that it essentially upheld a law excluding people based on race would be up in arms because of racism. Quite frankly, many to most of the SCOTUS decisions during WW2, and even more so during WW1, dealing with government actions against citizens because of the war, were blatantly wrong, and simply a result of war hysteria. Korematsu is a good example for WW2, and for WW1, Schenk v US or Debs v US.

David, to be fair, the issue was nationality.

The racism came from the press and from Hollywood.

	23-12-2003 22:33									#67
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quote: Granted, but I don't see how Korematsu could realistically be applied today because of the problems with it.

As long as the emergency actions have nothing to do with a specific 'race', then it can be applied, indirectly, because they don't cite it too often.

	23-12-2003 23:08									#68
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Since Korematsu had to do with nationality, not race, I would like someone to explain how to apply it in the case of al Qa'ida?

	24-12-2003 02:27									#69
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Korematsu said that the President can intern people without trials in cases of national emergency. Nationality, race, etc doesn't matter for the main principle.

	24-12-2003 03:48									#70
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Imran, all you saying is that Korematsu had nothing to do with race or nationality. I beg to differ. It had everything to do with nationality. If FDR had ordered people of Asian dissent to be placed in concentration camps I am sure the Supreme Court would have overruled FDR.

	24-12-2003 04:07									#71
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quote: Imran, all you saying is that Korematsu had nothing to do with race or nationality. I beg to differ. It had everything to do with nationality. If FDR had ordered people of Asian dissent to be placed in concentration camps I am sure the Supreme Court would have overruled FDR.

The only reason it had anything to do with nationality is because FDR only sent Japanese to concentration camps. It has to do with enemies. Al Quada is an enemy. I don't really see how Korematsu doesn't apply.

And even if FDR has said 'all Asians' and not just Japanese, I think they would have held it up. It was ruled on the basis of national emergency (and 9-0, btw).

	24-12-2003 04:12									#72
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The case itself refutes that it was based on race. Had it been, the Supremes said they would have held the order unconstutitional.

"It is said that we are dealing here with the case of imprisonment of a citizen in a concentration camp solely because of his ancestry, without evidence or inquiry concerning his loyalty and good disposition towards the United States. Our task would be simple, our duty clear, were this a case involving the imprisonment of a loyal citizen in a concentration camp because of racial prejudice. Regardless of the true nature of the assembly and relocation centers -- and we deem it unjustifiable to call them concentration camps with all the ugly connotations that term implies -- we are dealing specifically with nothing but an exclusion order. To cast this case into outlines of racial prejudice, without reference to the real military dangers which were presented, merely confuses the issue. Korematsu was not excluded from the Military Area because of hostility to him or his race. He was excluded because we are at war with the Japanese Empire, because the properly constituted military authorities feared an invasion of our West Coast and felt constrained to take proper security measures, because they decided that the military urgency of the situation demanded that all citizens of Japanese ancestry be segregated from the West Coast temporarily...."

http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Korematsu/

	24-12-2003 04:17									#73
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quote: The case itself refutes that it was based on race. Had it been, the Supremes said they would have held the order unconstutitional.

Yes, they cloud in flowery language that it WAS about race. ALL of the Japanese race on the West Coast were sent away. Even those whose nationality was American, but were of the Japanese race were sent away.

So, in the end, the Supremes = bullshit.

	24-12-2003 04:17									#74
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quote: So, in the end, the Supremes = bullshit.

	24-12-2003 04:33									#75
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Irman, it was about loyalty to the Emperor and all that. It had everything to do with nationality and had NOTHING to do with race no matter how many times you repeat it.

What was racist at the time was the way the media and film protrayed the Japanese.

	24-12-2003 04:35									#76
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quote: It had everything to do with nationality and had NOTHING to do with race no matter how many times you repeat it.

SUCH BULLSHIT!

Why did all Japanese go? Even US citizens? Were they loyal to the emperor? Did they say they were? NO! They were concentrated because they were Japanese. It was racism at its basest level.

One of the worst periods in US history.

	24-12-2003 04:39									#77
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Imran's right, it was about race not nationality. It didn't matter if the people of Japanese descent were fully assimilated apple-pie eating Americans, they were detained anyhow.

	24-12-2003 04:45									#78
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quote: It didn't matter if the people of Japanese descent were fully assimilated apple-pie eating Americans, they were detained anyhow.

Utterly shameful .

I bet 99% of those detained had no nefarious goals.

	24-12-2003 05:02									#79
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Probably closer to 99.9%

I don't know if we managed to round up our Japanese first, or if we let you take the lead on that one.

	24-12-2003 05:31									#80
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And they didn't round up German or Italian Americans nor did they require German or Italian Americans in the US military go only to the Pacific like they ordered the Nisei division to Europe.

	24-12-2003 10:35									#81
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Guys, it was the emperor thing. The German no longer had an emperor. They did in WWI, and I understand there were restrictions placed on the Germans at that time.

	24-12-2003 10:55									#82
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You mean German Americans weren't allowed to fight the Hun in WWI? Or were they sent to Turkey? I suspect it had nothing to do with emporers but with racism and familiarity, Germans had lived in the USA from the beginning and them Japanese were...well...you know...foreign.

	24-12-2003 12:27									#83
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quote: Guys, it was the emperor thing.

Priceless.

I guess if the Brits ended up on different sides in WW II, we'd be rounding people up of British descent. Or does it only work for guy Emperors?

	24-12-2003 22:56									#84
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Emperors... that must be the silliest thing I've read on this forum... well, since yesterday .

	25-12-2003 02:18									#85
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Imran, Silly or not, it was THE fundamental reason for the order, it WAS discussed by the Supreme Court, it WAS the reason that the Supremes foung the order lawful.

What you are doing, Imran, is falling into the trap that reasons stated by the government and the Supreme Court are not the real reasons. This is conspiracy thinking.

As to Germans during WWI, I had a friend whose grandfather was a German in the US at that time. He was telling me some of the restrictions placed on them. That was some time ago, so I no longer remember the details.

	25-12-2003 02:31									#86
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quote: Silly or not, it was THE fundamental reason for the order, it WAS discussed by the Supreme Court, it WAS the reason that the Supremes foung the order lawful.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It was racism, pure and simple. If the Germans had an emperor there is no chance they'd be thrown into concentration camps.

quote: What you are doing, Imran, is falling into the trap that reasons stated by the government and the Supreme Court are not the real reasons. This is conspiracy thinking.

Or rather realizing that the government and Court is trying to cover up the true reasons for their orders because, GUESS WHAT, government's LIE! I know that is hard for you to understand, but it happens.

quote: As to Germans during WWI, I had a friend whose grandfather was a German in the US at that time. He was telling me some of the restrictions placed on them.

Was one of them being ripped from their homes and having to live in a camp set up by the US Army? NO? Then you just prove my point yet again.

	25-12-2003 02:46									#87
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So, Imran, you absolutely DENY that the Japanese had any loyalty at all to their Emperor?

	25-12-2003 02:49									#88
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quote: So, Imran, you absolutely DENY that the Japanese had any loyalty at all to their Emperor?

I'm sure plenty of did have no loyalty to the Emperor of Japan.

	25-12-2003 03:04									#89
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quote: What you are doing, Imran, is falling into the trap that reasons stated by the government and the Supreme Court are not the real reasons. This is conspiracy thinking.

A) so you think that it is a fallacy to DOUBT THE GOVERNMENT?!

B) it's not conspiracy theory, it's called cynicism

	25-12-2003 03:07									#90
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Germany did have an Emperor during WWII in a sense. They called their gov't the Third Reich after all.

quote: So, Imran, you absolutely DENY that the Japanese had any loyalty at all to their Emperor?

I'm sure that the vast majority of Japanese-Americans didn't take their orders from Hirohito just like the vast majority of Italian-Americans didn't take orders from Mussolini and the vast majority of German-Americans didn't take orders from Hitler. You're the person inventing racist conspiracy theories, no better than bringing up Papism or the Elders of Zion.