25-12-2003 03:22									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or rather realizing that the government and Court is trying to cover up the true reasons for their orders because, GUESS WHAT, government's LIE! I know that is hard for you to understand, but it happens.

Well, it was nice knowing you. Say hi to the rest of the terrorists at Gitmo.

	25-12-2003 03:23									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Germany did have an Emperor during WWII in a sense. They called their gov't the Third Reich after all. I'm sure that the vast majority of Japanese-Americans didn't take their orders from Hirohito just like the vast majority of Italian-Americans didn't take orders from Mussolini and the vast majority of German-Americans didn't take orders from Hitler. You're the person inventing racist conspiracy theories, no better than bringing up Papism or the Elders of Zion.

I am not inventing anything. The dominance of Emperor-worship among the Japanese drove many, many decisions during WWII, beginning with the decision that many Japanese would be loyal to their Emperor rather than to the United States to the final decision to continue the Emperor after the war and to rule through him.

The Japanese loyalty to their Emperor was entirely different in kind from any loyalty any German would have had to Hitler and Mussoini.

Here are quote from the case itself,

"The 1942 Act was attacked in the Hirabayashi case as an unconstitutional delegation of power; it was contended that the curfew order and other orders on which it rested were beyond the war powers of the Congress, the military authorities and of the President, as Commander in Chief of the Army; and finally that to apply the curfew order against none but citizens of Japanese ancestry amounted to a constitutionally prohibited discrimination solely on account of race. To these questions, we gave the serious consideration which their importance justified. We upheld the curfew order as an exercise of the power of the government to take steps necessary to prevent espionage and sabotage in an area threatened by Japanese attack."
....
Here, as in the Hirabayashi case, supra, at p. 99, ". . . we cannot reject as unfounded the judgment of the military authorities and of Congress that there were disloyal members of that population, whose number and strength could not be precisely and quickly ascertained. We cannot say that the war-making branches of the Government did not have ground for believing that in a critical hour such persons could not readily be isolated and separately dealt with, and constituted a menace to the national defense and safety, which demanded that prompt and adequate measures be taken to guard against it."


Like curfew, exclusion of those of Japanese origin was deemed necessary because of the presence of an unascertained number of disloyal members of the group, most of whom we have no doubt were loyal to this country. It was because we could not reject the finding of the military authorities that it was impossible to bring about an immediate segregation of the disloyal from the loyal that we sustained the validity of the curfew order as applying to the whole group. In the instant case, temporary exclusion of the entire group was rested by the military on the same ground. The judgment that exclusion of the whole group was for the same reason a military imperative answers the contention that the exclusion was in the nature of group punishment based on antagonism to those of Japanese origin. That there were members of the group who retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed by investigations made subsequent to the exclusion. Approximately five thousand American citizens of Japanese ancestry refused to swear unqualified allegiance to the United States and to renounce allegiance to the Japanese Emperor, and several thousand evacuees requested repatriation to Japan."

http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Korematsu/

	25-12-2003 03:35									#93
	Remove this text

quote: Here are quote from the case itself

A. Do you expect them to reveal they made a racist decision?

B.

exclusion of those of Japanese origin was deemed necessary because of the presence of an unascertained number of disloyal members of the group, most of whom we have no doubt were loyal to this country. It was because we could not reject the finding of the military authorities that it was impossible to bring about an immediate segregation of the disloyal from the loyal that we sustained the validity of the curfew order as applying to the whole group.

That there were members of the group who retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed by investigations made subsequent to the exclusion. Approximately five thousand American citizens of Japanese ancestry refused to swear unqualified allegiance to the United States and to renounce allegiance to the Japanese Emperor, and several thousand evacuees requested repatriation to Japan.

MEMBERS of the group. Not ALL the group, yet all had to suffer. Why? Because it was difficult to segregate the 'disloyal from the loyal'.

Did Germans have to swear unqualified allegiance? Italians? Why did Japanese have to go through this?

Give it up, Ned... it was racism, plain and simple.

	25-12-2003 03:36									#94
	Got spare money?

You're citing government propaganda.

Like I said, this no better than Nazi's ranting about the Elders of Zion to justify Hitler's concentration camps.

	25-12-2003 05:57									#95
	Got spare money?

I'm sorry Imran and Ramo, but the facts are clear. Race had nothing to do with the order or the case. Loyalty of the Japanese was THE issue and the only issue.

In order to carry your burnder of proof on this issue, you would have to demonstrate that people born in Germany would not swear allegience to the US in significant numbers and even so the government decided not to segregate the Germans.

	25-12-2003 06:40									#96
	Put an end to popups!

quote: but the facts are clear. Race had nothing to do with the order or the case. Loyalty of the Japanese was THE issue and the only issue.

Sorry, the facts are clear, but not the way you'd like. Race had EVERYTHING to do with the order.

quote: In order to carry your burnder of proof on this issue, you would have to demonstrate that people born in Germany would not swear allegience to the US in significant numbers and even so the government decided not to segregate the Germans.

No, since it is well accepted historical fact that the order was based on racism, YOU have to prove that people from Germany all swore oaths to the government.

Also considering that only 10 people were convicted for spying for Japan, and they were ALL WHITE, I think this 'loyalty oath' crap fails the test as well.

Secondly, that doesn't matter, because it was ACKNOWLEDGED that they put people into camps who were NOT subject to a loyalty oath... simply because it was hard to tell the disloyal from the loyal (from your precious case). They didn't just send those who didn't swear the oath, but anyone else that shared the racial characteristics.

But you can live in your dream world.

	25-12-2003 06:44									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Imran, please provide a link to an admission by the SUPREME COURT that Korematsu was wrongly decided because it was RACIAL discrimination.

I think you are conflating obvious racism by Hollywood with racisim by FDR, the Democrat Congress and the Democrat Supreme Court.

	25-12-2003 06:52									#98
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Imran, please provide a link to an admission by the SUPREME COURT that Korematsu was wrongly decided because it was RACIAL discrimination.

They never did. However, it is one of those cases hardly ever spoken about.

quote: I think you are conflating obvious racism by Hollywood with racisim by FDR, the Democrat Congress and the Democrat Supreme Court.

No, historians back that up as well.

	25-12-2003 07:40									#99
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned ....the government decided not to segregate the Germans.

Not true; a number of German-Americans were placed in internment camps during World War II.

	25-12-2003 07:45									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Only those who actually were found to be spies and a few recent immigrants. The total was about 1000 Germans + Italians. Thousands of Japanese were sent away. 2nd generation Japanese were thrown in camps. They took CARE with Germans... not so with Japanese.

	25-12-2003 08:01									#101
	Get a bigger avatar today!

From a website, http://www.foitimes.com/internment/ , created by a Arthur D. Jacobs, Major, USAF Retired

quote: The World War II experience of thousands of German Americans, to most, is an unknown. During World War II, the U.S. government and many Americans viewed German Americans and others of "enemy ancestry" as potentially dangerous, particularly immigrants. The government used many interrelated, constitutionally questionable methods to control persons of German ancestry, including internment, individual and group exclusion from military zones, internee exchanges, deportation, repatriation, "alien enemy" registration, travel restrictions and property confiscation. The human cost of these civil liberties violations was high. Families were disrupted, if not destroyed, reputations ruined, homes and belongings lost. By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned. Pressured by the United States, Latin American governments collectively arrested at least 4,050 German Latin Americans. Most were shipped in dark boat holds to the United States and interned. At least 2,000 Germans, German Americans and Latin American internees were later exchanged for Americans and Latin Americans held by the Third Reich in Germany.

From an article at http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm

quote: MISSOULA, Mont. -- For decades, Italian immigrant families who lived through World War II in the United States did not want to talk about the curfews, confiscations of fishing boats, forced moves from seacoast towns, police searches of their homes and internments here at Fort Missoula. But researchers are fleshing out this obscure footnote to American history: the treatment of 600,000 Italian citizens in the United States who were classified as "enemy aliens" after World War II began. And that is stirring memories among those who lived through it. In 1942, when this old frontier Army post served as one of the nation's largest internment camps, the most widely spoken language at the post was not Japanese or English, but Italian. One of the internees was Alfredo Cipolato, a native Venetian who went from a job as a waiter at the Italian Pavilion of the 1939 World's Fair in New York to a barracks bunk in this once-remote town in western Montana.

quote: About 110,000 Japanese immigrants and Japanese-Americans were interned in a network of camps, including Fort Missoula. In this sweep of people suspected of sympathy with enemies of the United States, 10,905 Germans and German-Americans as well as a few Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians were interned. The U.S. government apologized in 1988 to the Japanese-Americans interned during World War II and started paying reparations of $20,000 each to survivors. "My government has apologized to the Japanese nationals. Where is the apology to me?" asked Art Jacobs, a Brooklyn native who at the age of 12 was interned with his father, a legal resident from Germany, at a camp in Crystal City, Texas. Jacobs, a retired U.S. Air Force major, said that German-American associations were generally silent about the internment for fear of dredging up old emotions linking Germans and Nazis.

quote: The police swept through Italian-American neighborhoods in many cities, seizing from Italian citizens firearms, radios, cameras and flashlights that could be used as signaling devices. For much of 1942, most of the 600,000 Italians were not allowed to travel five miles from their homes without police permission. That restriction kept a San Francisco man, Giuseppe DiMaggio, from visiting a wharf restaurant owned by his son, Joe, the baseball legend.

	25-12-2003 08:17									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Verto, the reason we do not apologize to the Germans, Italians and other Axis citizens and do apologoize to the Japanese was because the internment of the Japanese, in contrast to that of the Germans, etc., was NOT based on national security reasons, but solely based on RACISM.

We all know this to be a fact because it is repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated, again and again and again until it is assumed it is true.