21-12-2003 19:12									#1
	MPP & Peace treaty Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If your MPP partners declare war on a Civ that attacks you and after a while you sign a peace treaty with the attacker, does that hurt your reputation with your MPP partners?

The partners are still at war and can make you declare war again, breaking a peace treaty. But what if that doesn't happen?

I'm having problems with war weariness, so I need a break. But I also want to keep my reputation for trade purposes.

	21-12-2003 19:23									#2
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AFAIK you'll get the hit if you redeclare, even if it's because of an MPP. To the AI, it doesn't matter that you had an MPP, it matters that you declared peace and then broke your peace promise.

	22-12-2003 00:24									#3
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And there is one of the rubs about MPP. The never ending war.

	22-12-2003 01:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 And there is one of the rubs about MPP. The never ending war.

I know. I rarely use MPPs because of this.

This time I had little choice. The Russians were the only nation that could match my military strength and production... and they had a couple of MPPs.

They declared war, I signed MPPs with their friends and lured Russia into attacking me within my borders. Soon everybody had declared war on them

Now I've taken most of their core cites and they're much less of a threat. However, war weariness is becoming a big problem. So I can't take them out in one "session".

I'm trying to assess the risk and consequences of signing a peace treaty before the MPPs expire. The resources going into the lux slider could cost me my edge over the other civs. But I can't have them all angry with me at once... Nice game

	22-12-2003 02:29									#5
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Use alliances instead of MPP. Now you just have to bite the bullet and pay with the lux slider of entertainers.

	22-12-2003 03:28									#6
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I only use MPPs when under direct threat from a civ. I will sign MPPs to stave off conflict -- hopefully.

	22-12-2003 10:15									#7
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Careful, because if you are allied with someone against a civ, that someone gets pissed off if you make peace with the civ you are fighting within 20 turns of signing the alliance (ensure you check the negotiations screen of your alliance partner to see that Alliance has no time left on it first!).

	22-12-2003 11:51									#8
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True, but at least they can't force you into a war with someone else. like an MPP.

	22-12-2003 13:29									#9
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It's not that they're dragging me in wars with others, it's just that the war with our mutual enemy has been going on too long.

With an alliance there's no chance I can sign peace before it expires. Or the alliance partners can quit themselves after a few turns. That has happened all too often

With an MPP I can take my chances and go for peace a couple of turns before the pact is over. Looking at the battlefield, there's a fair chance I can get away with it. I just need to be sure about the consequences.

	22-12-2003 22:03									#10
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We need someone like Master Zen to lay down the art of diplomacy. I am terible at it. When the game gets to the point that I have gotten an MPP or two and had a war with other AI's joining in it. I no longer care about my relationships. I will not be doing much in the way of trades after that point. The ones that I will do, will not be impacted much by how the AI feels. They will be furious and stay that way the rest of the game and still make a deal here and there.

	23-12-2003 09:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by sprudl It's not that they're dragging me in wars with others, it's just that the war with our mutual enemy has been going on too long.

So you are saying that a 20 turn war is too long for you? I guess that makes you a hardcore builder!

Twenty turns after the alliance is signed, the obligation is finished, and you are free to make peace and any other deals you like with the enemy, unless you renew the alliance.

	24-12-2003 14:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt So you are saying that a 20 turn war is too long for you? I guess that makes you a hardcore builder!

It was a little over 20 turns in a democracy. The WW unhappiness was very bad all of a sudden.

quote: Twenty turns after the alliance is signed, the obligation is finished, and you are free to make peace and any other deals you like with the enemy, unless you renew the alliance.

No alliances, just an MPP.

But anyway, I solved it another way. I hadn't realised the Russian luxuries were within range. I reorganized and captured three different luxuries (2 new ones, 1 was trading for). Problem solved.

War unhappiness never was a problem again (about 50% of the unhappy citizens). The Russians weren't a problem either

	27-12-2003 00:07									#13
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I rarely make alliances. Only if I know I am going to fight a 20 turn war.

I never sign MPP. Only when I want to build United Nations and need everybody to vote for me.

Generally speaking, I am an honourable player. I don't break treaties.

This leads to my question: If I renegotiate a peace treaty, and refuse to renew it, will I get a reputation hit or not?

	27-12-2003 01:47									#14
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No reason to, you've served your 20 turns.
Unless of course, it activates an MPP somewhere else, and violates some other deal, which HASN'T run out, or something

	27-12-2003 04:00									#15
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THe problem is that treaties can be broken without your participation. So it makes being honorable tricky. A road you are using gets cut. Some civ you have delaigns with loses it harbor and so on.

	27-12-2003 06:18									#16
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I hate MPP's. You should at least be able to break out of it with a reputation penalty. As it is, you have to declare war.

EDIT: if a resource trade was part of the MPP deal, and you sign an embargo against that player, will the MPP be cancelled?

	27-12-2003 08:33									#17
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As far as I understand it, yes. Embargoes affect these relations. Always deal cash! Kidding...