22-12-2003 01:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No, he wanted the US to invade Afghanistan in just the way the Soviets did. What he didn't bargain for is that the US played it really smart and hired the Northern Alliance to do most of the fighting. This meant less US casualties (which would have been fatal to a US war effort if the war had gone on long enough). He doesn't have a lot of resources in Iraq, but he doesn't really need them and he doesn't need to do a hell of a lot. A guerilla campaign is really cheap to run, read Che Guevara's book on how to conduct one. If the occupation continues and the Shias get shut out of the political process things will get more violent. And the more US soldiers die for what appears to be an ungrateful bunch of Arabs, the harder it will be politically for Bush to keep them there. But that's not the big Kahuna. OBL really wants one thing. To install an Islamist regime in Saudi Arabia - if that happens he wins. The obstacle to this is the Saudi Royal Family. Demographics are on his side, there are many disaffected youth in SA (as 911 showed) and all they really need is to wake up to the possibility of overthrowing the government. A moderately successful guerilla campaign in Iraq is a "threat of a good example". That's what he wants, whether he will get it is another thing. It is not out of the question though and that is the reason I opposed the invasion of Iraq. Mass unrest in the Persian Gulf would be an economic disaster. Only one person has anything to gain from risking chaos in the area and that's OBL.

Yes a U.S. ground campaign in Afghanistan would have been different. But of course the main difference between us and the Soviets is tremendous and accurate air power and bombardment. A luxery the Soviets did not have. But OBL may not realize this.

And yes I agree his ultimate goal may be to overthrow the Saudi royal family. The war in Iraq may actually aid in that. Without Saddam to threaten the region, there is no solidarity within Suadi Arabia against a potential threat. But we'll see how that plays out. But the Saudi royal family will not last forever. The question is who will take control.

	22-12-2003 02:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Yes a U.S. ground campaign in Afghanistan would have been different. But of course the main difference between us and the Soviets is tremendous and accurate air power and bombardment. A luxery the Soviets did not have. But OBL may not realize this.

Um, that is no use against guerillas. OBL and Co. are still around. What really screwed him is that the warlords thought they could get a better deal off the Americans.

	22-12-2003 02:00									#33
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quote: call me a party pooper but isn't the whole "Terror Threat Level" a bit silly. Isn't it "terrorizing" people more than the terrorists?

I think it's silly too, but look at Berz's thread about the person suing the government for not releasing information about suspected plans to use planes as missiles before 9/11. Anything, as silly as it may sound now has to released so people don't ***** about it later.

	22-12-2003 02:01									#34
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so basically its whole purpose is to prevent or try to prevent lawsuits. interesting.

	22-12-2003 02:35									#35
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I guess you just can't win.

If you keep the intel locked in a pentagon office, don't let the public know and something happens, then the administration is a bunch of bastards who should have done something...

If you warn the public about intel indicating a possible attack, then the administration is being "silly"..

	22-12-2003 02:40									#36
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quote: so basically its whole purpose is to prevent or try to prevent lawsuits. interesting.

No, rather to prevent critizism if something happens.

	22-12-2003 02:41									#37
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Operation: Scare the Public... is underway

One of the reporters at the press conference asked a great question.

"What does this warning say about the progress on the war on terror? if this is an unprecedented level of chatter since 9-11, and larger attacks are expected, how much progress are we making?"

Tom Ridge stuttered and responded... "Well, we've got about two thirds or a half of their top leadership and frozen a lot of their assets!"



If there is another attack... Bush, Ridge, Condi Rice, and company are all to blame. I can't believe how America has given Bush a free ride after 9-11. If Clinton were president, the Repukes would have tried to impeach him again. But yet, with Bush, everyone falls in line. I still maintain that the administration is incompetent, ignorant, and inept in dealnig with terrorism. Bush has presided over the largest terror attack in the history of America... but where is the accountability? How many people from the TSA or FAA got fired over the security problems the lead to 9-11? NONE! How many people in the CIA or FBI or other intelligence agencies lost their jobs over the MASSIVE intelligence failure? NONE.

I really hope this is just another public scare tactic on the administration's part. I don't want more Americans to die because this administration doesn't know **** from Shinola when it comes to National Security.

	22-12-2003 02:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Operation: Scare the Public... is underway One of the reporters at the press conference asked a great question. "What does this warning say about the progress on the war on terror? if this is an unprecedented level of chatter since 9-11, and larger attacks are expected, how much progress are we making?" Tom Ridge stuttered and responded... "Well, we've got about two thirds or a half of their top leadership and frozen a lot of their assets!" If there is another attack... Bush, Ridge, Condi Rice, and company are all to blame. I can't believe how America has given Bush a free ride after 9-11. If Clinton were president, the Repukes would have tried to impeach him again. But yet, with Bush, everyone falls in line. I still maintain that the administration is incompetent, ignorant, and inept in dealnig with terrorism. Bush has presided over the largest terror attack in the history of America... but where is the accountability? How many people from the TSA or FAA got fired over the security problems the lead to 9-11? NONE! How many people in the CIA or FBI or other intelligence agencies lost their jobs over the MASSIVE intelligence failure? NONE. I really hope this is just another public scare tactic on the administration's part. I don't want more Americans to die because this administration doesn't know **** from Shinola when it comes to National Security.

I'm curious if this same post would have been made if during Bill clinton's administration, the 1993 failed trade center bombing had actually been successful in taking down the towers back then..
hmmm...


The president is at least trying to do something about terrorism, and to say that there has been no progress is just dumbfounding...

Disrupting the Afghanistan training/planning camps did something, if temporary, until the murderers that survived find a new hole to set up shop.

How about just supporting the country in this war instead of using every opportunity to try to seize a political advantage?

	22-12-2003 02:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 I'm curious if this same post would have been made if during Bill clinton's administration, the 1993 failed trade center bombing had actually been successful in taking down the towers back then.. hmmm...

absolutely...

quote: The president is at least trying to do something about terrorism, and to say that there has been no progress is just dumbfounding...

I didn't say there was no progress. Nobody knows for sure. But the Tom Ridge's own statements support the notion that even the Bush admin (or at the very least Ridge) doesn't think there has been much progress.

quote: Disrupting the Afghanistan training/planning camps did something, if temporary, until the murderers that survived find a new hole to set up shop.

You really think a man in a cave hooked up to dialysis (OBL) had direct control over the 9-11 operation? It sounds like you've bought their bullshit hook line and sinker. Whatever terrorist operations are in the works, the cells are already in the US and active. And leading the fools errand in Iraq certainly isn't doing much of anything. I think America would be better off spending hundreds of billions of dollars improving domestic security in the US than getting rid of spider hole Saddam. And those 150k troops would be of much better use inspecting cargo at our ports, or patroling our borders.

quote: How about just supporting the country in this war instead of using every opportunity to try to seize a political advantage?

what political advantage? I'm not in politics... I see things going on that I believe to be wrong. I'm not going to support actions that I believe are detrimental to our security and the lives of our people. Patriotism isn't blindly supporting some dumbass president and his private vendetta war. Patriotism is supporting what you believe is best for your country, and holding FAILURES accountable.

	22-12-2003 03:00									#40
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Well, there is no real hole left for them to hide in.

Nobody is going to offer them a place to stay.

Unless they want a couple of Predator drones swooping in on their punk asses.

	22-12-2003 03:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm really getting pissed at them raising the threat level and nothing happens. Yes I know that sounds ****ed up. I don't actually want something to happen. But if nothing is going to happen, then they shouldn't raise the threat level. We need better intelligence. We need female secret agents who sleep with the enemy to learn secrets. Throw a burkha on them if that is necessary.

how do you know that something didnt happen BECAUSE they raised the threat level?
[/obvious]

	22-12-2003 03:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX how do you know that something didnt happen BECAUSE they raised the threat level? [/obvious]

well then they would just attack after the theat level goes back down.

	22-12-2003 04:16									#43
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You can't blame Clinton. It's a fact that he was pretty sharp on the need to do something about terror. The truth is that Bush and co. just ignored the whole thing when they came into office.

And the Repugnicans say that Dems are soft on security.

	22-12-2003 04:17									#44
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quote: You can't blame Clinton. It's a fact that he was pretty sharp on the need to do something about terror.

Idle talk. Anyone can write a memo, Clinton didn't initiate any action to deal with the problem, however.

	22-12-2003 04:28									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You can't blame Clinton. It's a fact that he was pretty sharp on the need to do something about terror. Idle talk. Anyone can write a memo, Clinton didn't initiate any action to deal with the problem, however.

IIRC he did. Not military action, but homeland security stuff. I think I read about this in the NYROB.

	22-12-2003 04:35									#46
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quote: Not military action, but homeland security stuff.

From all I've read Clinton didn't do anything about homeland security, except said we should do A, B, C.

	22-12-2003 04:52									#47
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Clinton didn't do anything. I'm sure he understood the threat. But his hands were tied. He couldn't take away liberties by increasing homeland security- that would be deemed as targetting middle eastern nationalities- not something the democractic party would approve of. And he couldn't risk military action (Somalia taught him a lessong there).

If Clinton did do something domestically, there's a good chance 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

I'm not going to say Bush did anything either. Because he didn't. Neither president seemed to realize how significant attack could happen on U.S. soil. Or if they did realize that an attack could occur, neither one could do anything because of the inevitable political backlash from their own parties.

	22-12-2003 05:23									#48
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The bottom line is that the President is doing more than any other to battle these radicals, he's not sticking his finger in the air to see if bold military action against these a**holes is popular.

He knows what he has to do.

And if his efforts aren't enough, then I will find criticism, but I can't believe anyone can't realize that the President has initiated bolder moves in this effort than anyone past, and that the democratic party (mostly) is using whatever they can to win an election rather than support their country.

	22-12-2003 05:30									#49
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quote: Neither president seemed to realize how significant attack could happen on U.S. soil. Or if they did realize that an attack could occur, neither one could do anything because of the inevitable political backlash from their own parties.

I agree with this statement. My point was that even though Clinton recognized the threat (somewhat) there was little he or Bush could have done politically. Making a Homeland Security department costs money, and that would not have been approved without a crisis.

	22-12-2003 06:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 The bottom line is that the President is doing more than any other to battle these radicals, he's not sticking his finger in the air to see if bold military action against these a**holes is popular.

No, he's giving the illusion that he's doing more. He has lobbied against attempts to make the transportation industry liable for security failures. He has lobbied against mandatory cargo inspection on aircraft and in our nation's ports. He goes on TV and gives these ignorant speeches about "evil-doers" and has America duped into thinking Saddam Hussein was a threat and responsible for 9-11. And what about Afghanistan? The president has completely turned his back on getting Osama. Don't you think the 150k troops in Iraq would be more useful in the tribal regions around the Afghan-Paki border where Osama probably is? But no... he's using America's military to fight his own personal vendetta against Saddam.

quote: He knows what he has to do.

I agree. The president knows what he has to do. But he's choosing not to do it. He's not securing our country, he's not fighting terrorists. And he's exploiting 9-11 and the issue of terrorism in order to execute his agenda (that was planned way before he even took office).

quote: And if his efforts aren't enough, then I will find criticism, but I can't believe anyone can't realize that the President has initiated bolder moves in this effort than anyone past, and that the democratic party (mostly) is using whatever they can to win an election rather than support their country.

Clinton did more to fight terror than Bush. Search the net and investigate for yourself. Clinton initiated more counter-terrorism funding than any other president in history (including Dubya). Clinton had counter-terror experts create plans (Department of Homeland security authored by Clinton people). Clinton had plans to go after Al Qaeda... in fact, Gore was going to lead the charge in 2000. And when Gore won the election and Bush took power, Clinton briefed Condi Rice and the Bush people about what they should do and Dubya ignored EVERYTHING.

You ***** and moan about how the Dem's are trying to use this for political advantage. BUT NOT ONE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE IS TALKING ABOUT BUSH'S NATIONAL SECURITY FAILURES. Sure, I think Dean maybe said something about Bush's connection to the bin Ladens... but he hasn't talked a lot about it. Maybe Kucinich has said something, but he's a lefty kook.

The fact is, Bush is a danger to this country. I don't know if he truly believe the terrorists hate us because of our "freedoms". If he does, it speaks volumes about his ignorance and stupidity. Remember, before the 2000 election, Bush had never even been OUT OF THE COUNTRY. He didn't know hardly any foreign leaders' names. He had no military experience (unless you count being AWOL from the national guard from 72-73 as experience)... and he ignored the previous administration's warnings about terrorism.

Imran seems to be the only one who really gets it. Clinton couldn't do much of anything, what with the right wasting millions of taxpayer dollars and law enforcement resources investigating a damn stain on a dress and a blowjob.

	22-12-2003 06:45									#51
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quote: Imran seems to be the only one who really gets it. Clinton couldn't do much of anything, what with the right wasting millions of taxpayer dollars and law enforcement resources investigating a damn stain on a dress and a blowjob.

Say what? I also said Bush couldn't do anything with Democrats raising a stink about the cost and civil rights.

Don't try to turn my statements into an anti-right-wing circle jerk like you normally like .

	22-12-2003 06:46									#52
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Sava,

I cannot debate a person that is as blinded by politcal hatred as you are.

You make statements that come from nowhere and have no substance.




A Sava quote :

"I agree. The president knows what he has to do. But he's choosing not to do it. He's not securing our country, he's not fighting terrorists. And he's exploiting 9-11 and the issue of terrorism in order to execute his agenda (that was planned way before he even took office). "

another:

"And when Gore won the election and Bush took power, ..."


Even if Bush won by only ONE vote, he won. Good Lord... Since when does winning by a few votes mean you didn't win..?

anyway



well, i will add you to the ignore list as your lefty rantings make me ill.

At least others who disagree with the President have real reasons, you just go on and on about, well....bs

	22-12-2003 06:48									#53
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right, left, Clinton, Gore, shoulda, coulda, woulda

WHO GIVES A ****

Let's talk about what's going on NOW and how we're going to solve it

	22-12-2003 06:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Sava, I cannot debate a person that is as blinded by politcal hatred as you are.

you mean someone who is informed?

quote: You make statements that come from nowhere and have no substance.

wow you can't debate what I say so you attack me...



A Sava quote :

"I agree. The president knows what he has to do. But he's choosing not to do it. He's not securing our country, he's not fighting terrorists. And he's exploiting 9-11 and the issue of terrorism in order to execute his agenda (that was planned way before he even took office). "

another:

"And when Gore won the election and Bush took power, ..."

quote: Even if Bush won by only ONE vote, he won. Good Lord... Since when does winning by a few votes mean you didn't win..?

Do I need to post the popular vote records from the 2000 election? Bush lost by about 500k... and a complete recount in Florida after the fact revealed he lost Florida, too. When you buy off a few Supreme Court justices, it's easy for them to stop the democratic process from proving you lost.

quote: well, i will add you to the ignore list as your lefty rantings make me ill.

good, continue to live in your retarded little dream world... I'll pray for you.

quote: At least others who disagree with the President have real reasons, you just go on and on about, well....bs

I think 3,000 deaths are real reasons... I think a useless war is a real reason... I think terrible domestic policies are real reasons. I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of my government lying to me. That's a real reason. I'm sick and tired of seeing the top marginal tax rate getting cut while state and local taxes rise on lower income families. I'm sick of wages remaining stagnant and consumer debt rising because health care and education costs keep rising because of federal cuts. Those are very real reasons to despise the Republican Party and their retard chimpy president.


But if it makes you feel better, I didn't like Clinton that much. But I at least give him credit where credit is due. If you want to see me ***** about Clinton, I can create a thread. At least that will satisfy your dopey right wing beliefs.

	22-12-2003 07:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker right, left, Clinton, Gore, shoulda, coulda, woulda WHO GIVES A ****

I give a **** about when my government lies to me... I give a **** when my government is wasting my money... I give a **** when 3,000 people DIE because my president is too ignorant and too incompetent to lead this country.

quote: Let's talk about what's going on NOW and how we're going to solve it

#1... elect a president that CARES about America and national security... and one who won't lie to the American people... maybe Dean or Clark... I'd even settle for a John McCain.

	22-12-2003 07:01									#56
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you're correct striker, but I cannot abide those that just attack the president with no acknowledgement of anything good he may have done , simply because they are of the opposite party.


As such, I think the president is doing what any responsible president would do.

Does anyone think that just initaitng programs and funding commitees is as effective as real military action in this case?

Whether the military actions the president is taking are the best ones or the most effective is moot because at least he has the balls to TAKE action in the name of security. Even if some think it is in the wrong direction.

He's not sitting around and debating in committee ad nauseum with the whole world (read UN) about how best to defend HIS country!!

If the rest of the world thinks it's just the US that these radical murderers want dead, they are in for a very rude awakening should the US ever actually be destroyed by these scumbags.

	22-12-2003 07:05									#57
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I agree with you vee



They drew first blood!!!!

	22-12-2003 07:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 you're correct striker, but I cannot abide those that just attack the president with no acknowledgement of anything good he may have done , simply because they are of the opposite party.

I'm not a Democrat. They are just the lesser of the two evils.

quote: As such, I think the president is doing what any responsible president would do.

running up the largest spending deficits in history? taking unprovoked military action against foreign nations? or maybe it's alienating the entire world community?

quote: Does anyone think that just initaitng programs and funding commitees is as effective as real military action in this case?

military action is effective... but only if you target THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR ATTACKING US! And even then, attacking people on a foreign land doesn't protect us from the terrorists ALREADY IN OUR COUNTRY!

quote: Whether the military actions the president is taking are the best ones or the most effective is moot because at least he has the balls to TAKE action in the name of security. Even if some think it is in the wrong direction.

because Clinton didn't attack anyone right? *coughHaitiSomaliaKosovoIraq*

quote: He's not sitting around and debating in committee ad nauseum with the whole world (read UN) about how best to defend HIS country!!

you mean he's not building coalitions like his father?

quote: If the rest of the world thinks it's just the US that these radical murderers want dead, they are in for a very rude awakening should the US ever actually be destroyed by these scumbags.

again, you are making the same damn ignorant mistake in thinking Iraq is somehow linked to the war on terror...

	22-12-2003 07:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I agree with you vee They drew first blood!!!!

	22-12-2003 07:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Yes a U.S. ground campaign in Afghanistan would have been different. But of course the main difference between us and the Soviets is tremendous and accurate air power and bombardment. A luxery the Soviets did not have.

Killing 19 children to get one terrorist like what happened the other day constitutes 'tremendous and accurate airpower'?

Maybe the rather large familes in that part of the world was never a part of the equation.