22-12-2003 21:05									#1
	Bitter and Twisted I: Liberalism vs Conservatism Increase the size of your Attachments

This is not a spam fest or a troll fest, so go lure MtG somewhere else .

I am fed up of this constant petty bickering on all levels, up to government between liberals and conservatives. We all want to make the world a better place for heavens sake! We just have different ideas of how to do it! Surely the best solution is a dialectic, rather than a polarisation.

What I mean is this: Conservatives - Stop abusing liberals and respect their opinions. They are not terrorist sympathisers and they are not unpatriotic.

Liberals: Stop winding up conservatives about the foundations for their arguments. They are powerful and emotive for them and it can lead to hurt if you constantly whine on and on about fallacies. They wouldn't be using their arguments if it didn't mean something to them, just because you cannot see it does not mean it is wrong.

Both sides need to make a bigger effort to understand each other.

And yes, I am a liberal.

Discuss.

	22-12-2003 21:09									#2
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I am a liberal, a liberal of the true sort though, none of this trendy New Urban Left bollocks.

	22-12-2003 21:10									#3
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I'm having this one...

	22-12-2003 21:12									#4
	Re: Bitter and Twisted I: Liberalism vs Conservatism Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy This is not a spam fest or a troll fest, so go lure MtG somewhere else . I am fed up of this constant petty bickering on all levels, up to government between liberals and conservatives. We all want to make the world a better place for heavens sake! We just have different ideas of how to do it! Surely the best solution is a dialectic, rather than a polarisation. What I mean is this: Conservatives - Stop abusing liberals and respect their opinions. They are not terrorist sympathisers and they are not unpatriotic. Liberals: Stop winding up conservatives about the foundations for their arguments. They are powerful and emotive for them and it can lead to hurt if you constantly whine on and on about fallacies. They wouldn't be using their arguments if it didn't mean something to them, just because you cannot see it does not mean it is wrong. Both sides need to make a bigger effort to understand each other. And yes, I am a liberal. Discuss.

You seem slightly biased . I don't recall using emotional arguments in supporting conservativism

	22-12-2003 21:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I am a liberal, a liberal of the true sort though, none of this trendy New Urban Left bollocks.

And Marx was a right-wing extremist

	22-12-2003 21:13									#6
	Re: Bitter and Twisted I: Liberalism vs Conservatism Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy This is not a spam fest or a troll fest

Liar.

	22-12-2003 21:16									#7
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quote: You seem slightly biased . I don't recall using emotional arguments in supporting conservativism

Liberals often disagree. I concur of course... its simply different logic. The dispositions for that logic may well be emotional, but that goes for both sides, and are probably more sociological or psychological. As Nietzsche said, all philosophers have been able to do is communicate their own mental states. Ok he didn't say it in those words, but I'm not the sort of person to quote people correctly.

	22-12-2003 21:18									#8
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Wait... are you saying that I am using emotional logic, despite never referencing to "emotion" (or something similar) in my arguments?

I'm not a tree-hugging Greenpeace member who says "think of all the cute furry animals and the poor, put-upon environment!"

	22-12-2003 21:19									#9
	Re: Bitter and Twisted I: Liberalism vs Conservatism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy This is not a spam fest or a troll fest, so go lure MtG somewhere else . I am fed up of this constant petty bickering on all levels, up to government between liberals and conservatives. We all want to make the world a better place for heavens sake! We just have different ideas of how to do it! Surely the best solution is a dialectic, rather than a polarisation. What I mean is this: Conservatives - Stop abusing liberals and respect their opinions. They are not terrorist sympathisers and they are not unpatriotic. Liberals: Stop winding up conservatives about the foundations for their arguments. They are powerful and emotive for them and it can lead to hurt if you constantly whine on and on about fallacies. They wouldn't be using their arguments if it didn't mean something to them, just because you cannot see it does not mean it is wrong. Both sides need to make a bigger effort to understand each other. And yes, I am a liberal. Discuss.

Terrorist!

Why do you hate your country so much? Admit it, you want the Iraqi insurgents to win and for the Iraqis to be enslaved again, because you hate the USA which wants freedom for the Iraqis.

	22-12-2003 21:23									#10
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quote: Wait... are you saying that I am using emotional logic, despite never referencing to "emotion" (or something similar) in my arguments?

No I'm not. I'm saying that liberals shouldn't suggest that conservatives are those who run to their flag in admiration and cry when the national anthem is played. I'm saying that liberals should recognise that conservatives have valid arguments. I'm saying that your argument can be entirely logical, but it is your emotional disposition that causes it. To attack your disposition would be an ad hominem. I freely admit that my views have their roots in my personality, as do all of ours, but I expect in a debate people to attack my arguments not my mental condition!

quote: Why do you hate your country so much? Admit it, you want the Iraqi insurgents to win and for the Iraqis to be enslaved again, because you hate the USA which wants freedom for the Iraqis.

OMG its like you can read my mind!!!

quote: I'm not a tree-hugging Greenpeace member who says "think of all the cute furry animals and the poor, put-upon environment!"

I am. Attack my argument, not me.

	22-12-2003 21:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy OMG its like you can read my mind!!!

That must be fun, with all the big bright illustrations.

	22-12-2003 21:26									#12
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Lucy in the sky..............

	22-12-2003 22:00									#13
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quote: Liberals: Stop winding up conservatives about the foundations for their arguments. They are powerful and emotive for them and it can lead to hurt if you constantly whine on and on about fallacies. They wouldn't be using their arguments if it didn't mean something to them, just because you cannot see it does not mean it is wrong.

OMFG, stop being such a sissy. If their arguments are wrong, THEY ARE WRONG. This 'can't we all just get together' bullshit has no place here.

	22-12-2003 22:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy No I'm not. I'm saying that liberals shouldn't suggest that conservatives are those who run to their flag in admiration and cry when the national anthem is played.

Why, its true, just because Liberals are all whacko anarchists, don't drag the conservatives into you silly little world.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I'm saying that liberals should recognise that conservatives have valid arguments. I'm saying that your argument can be entirely logical, but it is your emotional disposition that causes it.

At least you have seen a glimmer of the light.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I freely admit that my views have their roots in my personality, as do all of ours, but I expect in a debate people to attack my arguments not my mental condition!

Be a Liberal qualifies as being a mental condition.

	22-12-2003 22:15									#15
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Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and they always stink.

That is the diff between libs and repubs, neither can be technically wrong though some can be more wrong than others. Yet, when it's an opinion it becomes a pain to attempt to predict the future and that is generally where arguments arise. I think the two party system does a good job to keep the majority happy on a majority of the issues by this bickering...

Heck, if Sava and I can agree on certain issues than nothing is impossible.

	22-12-2003 22:23									#16
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well, i think he means issues other than whether tripledoc and charlesbhoff are kooks or not.

	22-12-2003 22:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I am a liberal, a liberal of the true sort though, none of this trendy New Urban Left bollocks.

Only if you go right back beyond Liberalism to the Whigs, in which case it simply equates to "Persecute the Papists".

	22-12-2003 22:26									#18
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and whaleboy, this kind of moderate viewpoint is what gives other moderates a bad name.

you ought to have balls to stand up for what you believe in. if this means pointing out exactly where conservatives are wrong and showing precisely where liberals are wrong, so be it.

moderate politics beliefs are not about saying "everybody's ok, let's all just get along..."

they're about synthesizing the proper balance between both sides, creating a perfect representation of what should be, and defending it vigorously and rigorously.

	22-12-2003 23:09									#19
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to Azazel and Q Cubed

	22-12-2003 23:13									#20
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quote: If their arguments are wrong, THEY ARE WRONG. This 'can't we all just get together' bullshit has no place here.

Yep, leftist arguments are wrong. Thanks Az .

	22-12-2003 23:15									#21
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Imran: Well, if our p.o.v.s are contradictory, only one of us can be right, that's for sure. I'll ignore the little troll.

	22-12-2003 23:25									#22
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DOWN WITH MODERATES!!!!

At least that's something the libs and I can agree on

	22-12-2003 23:49									#23
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Is it really that bad to ask for honest discussion/debate as opposed to mindlessly screaming at eachother?

	22-12-2003 23:56									#24
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no, it's not. the thrust of the argument should not be more vitriol, but more reason.

logic will point the flaws in both sides' arguments.

unfortunately, idiots on both sides of the spectrum feel that it is absolutely necessary to embellish their arguments with vicious ad hominem attacks, even if they're "justified" by ann coulter's definition.

	22-12-2003 23:57									#25
	Re: Bitter and Twisted I: Liberalism vs Conservatism Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't consider myself a liberal, but ...

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Liberals: Stop winding up conservatives about the foundations for their arguments. They are powerful and emotive for them and it can lead to hurt if you constantly whine on and on about fallacies.

The truth hurts, and more than that conservatives should fear it, and do.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy They wouldn't be using their arguments if it didn't mean something to them, just because you cannot see it does not mean it is wrong.

Did you stop to think that it is plain as day that it is wrong?

	23-12-2003 00:14									#26
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quote: Well, if our p.o.v.s are contradictory, only one of us can be right, that's for sure.

Yep, I'm right, you are wrong. That was easy, wasn't it?

	23-12-2003 00:33									#27
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"
The truth hurts, and more than that conservatives should fear it, and do"


Stop, by pointing out my fallacies you are leading to hurt. Expect a lawsuit soon to pay for the therapy I will need to recover from this devestating statement.

	23-12-2003 00:37									#28
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WTF!! As this forum is well aware, I have the balls to stand up for what I believe in, however, I don't see why thats any barrier to civility and respect for either side. A debate is not a war. It is merely a comparison. When asked for my views, I give it, however I know I shouldn't deride the others. I only picked this topic for this thread because it seems to incite emotions and stereotypes from both sides, and it pisses me off!

	23-12-2003 00:45									#29
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Whaleboy, and a Merry Christmas to you as well!

	23-12-2003 00:47									#30
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I'm a liberal conservative

you rarely have me defending conservatives though. I try hard not to be a conservative. I'm a bit ashamed of my conservatism. Because being a conservative isn't cool. But economically I am a conservative. A better word to describe me is a capitalist.

On most social issues I'm liberal. On foreign policy I'm both liberal and conservative. I do believe we should stop interfering with the affairs of sovereign states, but I also believe in the right of the U.S. to defend its interests at home and abroad.

Last edited by Dis on 23-12-2003 at 00:55