23-12-2003 05:47									#1
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We have the save for 410.

I intend to send RP peace accepted. Thus ending the formal part of the Bobian War. The war will really end when GS leaves our shores.

Now what do we do with our forces?. Do we move them into Pamploma or do I begin sending them home?. I see no reason to send them home just yet. In many ways having this huge concentration down there ensures ND's cooperation.

Aggie

	23-12-2003 06:46									#2
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Why are sending peace to RP? I thought it was a battle to the end.

	23-12-2003 07:19									#3
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Whats happened to Toledo ? And the other three cities ?

	23-12-2003 07:21									#4
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Yeah? I can see making peace with them if they have a city in Stormia, but not while their still on Bob. NO GS OR ROLEPLAY ANYTHING ON BOB!

	23-12-2003 07:46									#5
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Sorry I forgot to mention the following detail, RP razed toledo and Gs has the other cities. GS probably will raze these cites(New Madrid and Barcelona) rather than leave them for us. They claim they will be eveacuated by 430.
Aggie

	23-12-2003 08:59									#6
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Then I see no need to negotiate with them or send them peace.

MZ - Can you negotiate with GS ?

The Anti-GS or Anti RP movements is still pretty strong in GoW.
We will continue the tech/trade embargo and encourage our allies to do the same...unless they give us the cities.

It's a long shot... but we are talking about being very friendly with them, and even joint action against Lego...its not the time to screw us/ND by disbanding cities.

	23-12-2003 10:36									#7
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sent to Cort Haus:

quote: Greeting to our Stormian friends. There are two issues that we would like to bring forward with your team: 1) Given that we agreed not to interrupt the evacuation of GS troops from southern Bob we would like to receive an assurance that GS will not raze those cities which are currently under its occupation in the continent. 2) We would like to schedule a "post-war" chat with your team since there is much to discuss especially tech and lux trades and the overall post-war situation as well as any other topics that GS wishes to bring up. Best regards and happy holidays -Master Zen GoW CoFA

	23-12-2003 16:07									#8
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Mind you they are doing the exact thing they attacked us for in the main forum. Razing cities. Just one more example of their hypocrisy.

	23-12-2003 18:48									#9
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I still say I'ld rather get Lego and go to GS, return Vox to Estonia, and then us, Vox, and ND take out Lego.

Now, would Lego go for that? Not likely, but I'ld trust them FAR more than anything GS says.

	23-12-2003 21:48									#10
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you may want to send to others on GS besides Cort Haus MZ... you said that you have sent other PMs to him and not gotten any reply.

	23-12-2003 22:43									#11
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OK, there'll be no peace offer this turn. I just figured since they are off Bob and we can't attack them yet(though a ship is on its way to the east coast to move troops if necessary), peace was good. But I now see that we need a FORMAL peace treaty BEFORE we make peace. I'll also continue to shadow the GS withdraw.

Once again ND didn't send any money so we have to go with lower research. this gets us chem in 12. We need a good chat with ND to get our border etc, since they are unhappy with the original deal.

MZ, can you also start the formal peacetreaty procedures for RP and also send off a letter to GS to get assurances that they will not allow RP to keep at war inperpetuity.

Aggie

	23-12-2003 22:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie OK, there'll be no peace offer this turn. I just figured since they are off Bob and we can't attack them yet(though a ship is on its way to the east coast to move troops if necessary), peace was good. But I now see that we need a FORMAL peace treaty BEFORE we make peace. I'll also continue to shadow the GS withdraw. Once again ND didn't send any money so we have to go with lower research. this gets us chem in 12. We need a good chat with ND to get our border etc, since they are unhappy with the original deal. MZ, can you also start the formal peacetreaty procedures for RP and also send off a letter to GS to get assurances that they will not allow RP to keep at war inperpetuity. Aggie

WHAT!?

What the hell is going on with them? I never get their chats, (HORRID time for me). If they are skrewing with us, GS may as well stay. I aint about to mess around with that garbage.

	23-12-2003 23:51									#13
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx WHAT!? What the hell is going on with them? I never get their chats, (HORRID time for me). If they are skrewing with us, GS may as well stay. I aint about to mess around with that garbage.

Well they have 2 main issues with the current deal. First off they did say they wouldn't backstab us, but have to talked to Lego about this issue. They refused to discuss solutions until the war was over.

1) They took more loses than we did, and thus deserve a bigger peice of the pie.

2) They loses some good cities and resources in the north and are left with only ruins in the south.

Lets do each point

1) First arguement, on the surface seems true, but I'm not sure it is true. Yes in most battles they attack first, but they also had great luck. Yes we did get to attack weakened units, but still even on that last battle they had few real loses. Now you will remember that in the first offesnive toward Pamploma we lost about 13 riders in battle. ND lost not one if I am correct. Also in the final fighting near the SP we lost 4 riders. Plus that other engagement against the pike/MI/worker force, it was all us and we lost a rider.

For the record I believe this last offensive to drive Gs off the SP resulted in the final victory. Yes lego helped, but if we had not shown power by driving them off that Sp, they might have dug in to fight to the death.

I do not know Nd loses for the first part of the war, but I can not believe they were extremenly high.

2) The second point is true, but we can say "we'll be stck in a poor position with no vertical dimension if they don't give that area to us. The way palaces work, it is important to have a more circular shape. Currently we have only a east west orientation. This simply won't do. I fugure we MUST still get those cities/

Perhaps we can promise workers and maybe some settlers to help encourage them, and maybe a slight delay. But I don't want to drag this out. If we get little they'll end up with 75% of the continent. This is unacceptable.

So these are the issue that aparently exist, for the record they haven't officially informed us that they are voiding the deal, but I expect they definiely will want to renegotiate.

However, as I mentioned in the last turn report(I think), I am moving defensive units to ALL BORDER cities. Also riders in the north will be positioned just un case. In particular "the hill" will be well fortified. With the ND army in the south I think we have little to fear, but this doesn't mean I'm going to tempt them.

For the record I still believe that ND is acting in good faith, its just that my belief that they will be loyal allies has been somewhat shaken as of late.

Aggie

	24-12-2003 01:12									#14
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Think about it: by treaty they will now lose 2 out of their 4 biggest and most productive cities, we'd be kind of pissed too, especially since it can open the door to a massive backstab by us and our biggest army.

With regards to the two points:

1) is BS. We lost a crapload of Riders too conisderably over 20 which is more or less what ND lost. Our losses were far more even than they would like us to believe.

2) they are right. But that does not mean that we will renegotiate. The deal will be followed through however, what I do suggest is that we do it in stages so ND doesn't lose all their cities on the same turn. As a sign of good faith and as agreed to waaay before, they MUST give us Thordoba (Irongard) straight up. After that we can delay 15-20 turns for the next city (the one on the west coast) and then another 15-20 turns until they hand over Dar-Es-Killam. That will give them time to plop settlers on the south and leech out their gifted cities for all they are worth.

	24-12-2003 01:18									#15
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CH answered:

quote: Thankyou for your message, MZ. It has been posted on our forum for discussion, but meanwhile here are couple of thoughts. 1) GS are at peace with GoW, but not yet with ND - from whom we have not recieved a reply to recent suggestions of peace. While we are still at war with ND, they could take the cities. Further, whilst there is a theoretical possibility of a deal being done with these cities, we would naturally have to discuss the situation with the original owners of those cities, who, as you will understand, are slightly sore at the moment. 2) A post-war chat sounds an excellent idea. I'm sure GS will look forward to it Best Regards, Cort Haus

	24-12-2003 01:38									#16
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ND has no valid opposition, yes those northern cities are productive ones. BUT THEY KNEW AND FOUNDED THEM TO GIVE TO US. It was part of the deal before they founded them.

They have the superior and CHOICE land, they have all the luxuries AND the Saltpeter.

And to wait until now to bring it up just reaks of backstab.

	24-12-2003 02:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb ND has no valid opposition, yes those northern cities are productive ones. BUT THEY KNEW AND FOUNDED THEM TO GIVE TO US. It was part of the deal before they founded them. They have the superior and CHOICE land, they have all the luxuries AND the Saltpeter. And to wait until now to bring it up just reaks of backstab.

Amen.

This is just plain BS.

I'm VERY tempted to tell GS to turn those boats around right now. They CHOSE to build those cities and to build them up.

	24-12-2003 02:39									#18
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WHAT solutions? The war IS over. RP is off of bob. That is what this was all about to begin with.

	24-12-2003 05:01									#19
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Aggie, when is the next chat with ND? I would assume its not Christmas day...

I would very much like to join because I have been one of the biggest advocates for the current plan for dividing Bob (I mean, I did make it )

What we must realise is, that ND has more to lose in doing the plan than we do. The two big cities are the ones contended in this, as Irongard was automatically to be given to us, and 2 other cities were founded after they agreed in principle to the plan.

I figured we would have to help them some, ie chopping jungle, populating the south a bit.

The fact that they are skimping on the committment they made for chemistry is disturbing. Do not give it to them freely until they pay what they owe This is not the time/method of making up for the deal.

	24-12-2003 05:14									#20
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Well there was talk of a chat christmas, at the time I said I couldn't attend. But apparently the others could. I guess we could schedule it on Friday, unless you all want one on christmas.

The chemistry welch does disturb me greatly. I said 77gold for 10 or 121 for 8. I beleive common sense would say it was 121gpt. We'll have it at this rate in 12 which is 6 turns later than before. O course we'll get a university/3libaries and 2courthouses in this time so probably we'll end up around 10 turns.
Aggie

	24-12-2003 05:50									#21
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Another thing...
They lost Ansars yes... but they also scored a leader which we did not.
That easily makes up for their losses.

Have they used it ??

If not...then thats an immediate Forbidden palace and a bunch of non-corrupt cities in RP territory...which already has some road infastructure.