23-12-2003 14:06									#1
	Going Barb Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just had the most peculiar experience in on-line MP.

I was 1v1 with Swissy for the 3rd Apolyton Tournament. I picked Sumerian, he picked Celts. 2 AIs (random) came up Egypt and Greece.

We got a close start, ~14 tiles between start locations. We found each other quickly. However, I probed with the Enkidu's, while he camped out with warriors. I got the map advantage.

As luck would have it, after I found horses very near by my start, 3 iron turned up handy to me. I was on top of 2 of them, and the third near the Celts was easily occupied by Enkidus, which I promptly did. It seemed the game was in hand.

Woo is me began about then, or a little earlier. This is the first game I tried Agri, and I don't know if I really have a good feel for how to use it, especially with accelerated production turned on. My start position was a little less than great, even with the iron close at hand, but Agri came in handy for that desert.

Anyways, the peculiar thing is not the build ques, or the land. The peculiar thing is what I did when all seemed lost (and most likely was anyways).

After getting the first 4 cities set up, and seeing that the Celts likely had no iron, I decided that this game was not going to make the Middle Ages. Barracks, sword, sword, sword, horse, sword...

1st wave of 12 sword and a couple horse sent off to beat Celt butt raw. What's that Celtic Swordsman over there? Oh oh, he has iron I did not find.

1st wave breaks on walls of target city... very badly betrayed by the rng if I may point out. OK, withdraw survivors (about 6 units after killing maybe 4 or 5). Rest up and add more troops, many of them.

Back up to 12 swords and 8 horse... let's go again. This time we come tantilisingly close to taking the city. Many Celtic Swords lay dead after the fortified spears are overcome, but alas... I came up short and stupidly failed to send 3 reserve swords forward a turn earlier when they could have won the day for the good guys... *kicks self*

Right, withdraw... agian, with about 8 units this time. Rush up more new builds, but I notice that Mr. Celt is not all military. There are a few settlers coming out of his cities juding from the 2 drop of pop. Oh well, maybe the rng will favour us this time with 13 or 14 swords and 7 or 8 horse.

Nope. Disaster. Could not have gotten worse results. OK. Taunt the Celts. 'Now you came and get me!' What happens? Well, a Celt Sword Army shows up (with 14 hp). OK. It dusts a new city, I dust it with a combo of sword and horse. Remember kids, armies are not the Titanic. Oh wait, maybe by themselves they are...

I still haven't got to the peculiar part. It is coming soon, I promise. Anyways, back when I saw the Celts with what I thought was no iron, and me with lots, I decided that research was not necessary after Iron and HBR. All I wanted was more units. More units I got, but with losses I found myself with a healthy bank account. ~400 gold.

So now, after wave three, and the dead Celt army... very few more Celts show up. Some coastal raiders make a nuicance of themselves, but that's about it. So. Mr. Celt has been sitting back, building, while all this time I have been a right cursed war monger. I figure there is no way this is going to be saved by traditional micro-management even if the oppo would be patient for it. What is a war monger with his tail cut off to do?

Go barb.

I snickered, and set all the cities to military units away from useless things like harbours (which I had researched while waiting for the thunderbolt to strike). Let's see... 450 some odd gold... I should be able to build... about 30 swords, 20 horse, and 18 Enkidus. Now I am running a defecit, and things will not last forever. That's OK. I have a settler, and I am at war with the 2 AI. The AI are close enough that they can easily take cities. Great!

Set capital and all other far away cities to disband, leaving 1 city near the Egyptians to be the new capital and the sacrifice for imortality. All units scurry from all cities to join 'The Stack'. That stack is everything. All of it. Once the last city falls (to some Celtic raiders who happened along to speed us on our way) we no longer have gold, but we no longer pay unit upkeep.

The Stack begins to lurch towards the Celts. We've gone barb...

	23-12-2003 16:33									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's official - nye has gone mad.

An... intriguing strategy, and an interesting point to note (if what should just be purely an academic piece of info!), but with some of your luck, what are you going to if you happen to lose?

And now that you have told Swissy all this, how is he going to stop you in your tracks and laugh at you?

	23-12-2003 18:49									#4
	Support Apolyton

I wanna screenshot of THE STACK.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 19:12									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Very interesting tactic

	23-12-2003 21:00									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Interesting strategy, but Swissy is too good a player. You'll regret doing this.

	23-12-2003 23:48									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes please. Give us a screenshot of your 'Sumerian-Barbarian Uprising'!

	24-12-2003 00:14									#9
	Suffering from ads?

:looney:

	24-12-2003 00:28									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Motown. Yes, Swissy is good. The point is that the game was his after the second push on his city failed. If not, then after the third for sure.

This is 1v1, so I think I will concede to him. However, if this were multiple MP, then his decision not to build army to finish us off after the third push could have cost him dearly. That was the point of my posting this in strategy, aside from it being an amusing story.

We got a resync error just as The Stack reached his first city. He has the resync.sav so we could continue it, but I don't know if I will make him play it out.

Anyways, The Stack. There is another sword and 3 Enkidus 9 of the main body (some MI were unfortunate enough to move adjacent).

	24-12-2003 01:12									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks for the screenies, NYE. 59 combat units + 2 workers, with another 4 next door.

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 01:21									#12
	Got spare money?

I wanted to see how many I could get going. I could have got a few more, but I was under 200 gold when the last city fell, so I was cutting it close to the point where I would have started to lose a unit per turn.

Curiously, I was worried that Swissy would catch on to what I was doing and defend my last, empty city by killing approaching Egyptians. He had a couple Galic Swords in the area, but he took the bait so all was good.

	24-12-2003 02:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I almost caught on. If I had seen the stack before taking Kish I might have blocked the Egyptians and waited for the stack to whittle down and take it out with MI (making 2 a turn). As it is if you take a city your gonna find yourself down to 10 odd units or so, due to support costs. The startegy may have worked if nor for the support costs you incur once you take a city. Your cities were still using the ancient graphic so I thought you probably not had any other governments, and thus not be able to save support costs by going anarchy (a strategy I have used before when pinched for cash and on an offensive). The city you were about to attack had the Great Library, but also had 20 pikemen and a couple of catapults which were soon to be upgraded as I had eng in 4, and Cleo had a pile of gold to hand me for it. Not to mention the MI that were comming from up north.

	24-12-2003 03:17									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Swissy As it is if you take a city your gonna find yourself down to 10 odd units or so, due to support costs. The startegy may have worked if nor for the support costs you incur once you take a city.

Not if he keep razing them.

So he could do a lot of damage before the superstack gets whittled down.

I may try this in one of my PBEM's (I hope the player concerned doesn't read this ).

	24-12-2003 03:59									#15
	Suffering from ads?

In MP, you don't get the option to raze when you take a city. The city is automatically razed if it is a size 1 with no culture. Otherwise, you HAVE to keep it. Also, abandoning a city does not take effect immediately. When you try to abandon, you'll get a message that says "Thebes will be abandoned in 1 turn" or 2 turns or whatever. I believe the number of turns is determined by the size of the city or the culture maybe. In the meantime, you get to pay support I would imagine.

I don't see anything wrong with your strategy and wouldn't complain if you used it against me. It's like a "Hail Mary"; a last-ditch, desperate effort that will probably fail.

Gotta give you credit for "thinking outside the box", that's for sure.

	24-12-2003 05:10									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oh damn. I forgot I couldn't raze.

However, I think that house rules should forbid 'going barb'. It is an abuse of the game mechanics and could seriously screw up multiple player on-line. Take the cities, and leave them empty while The Stack continues on. You lose a unit per turn, less if another player or AI comes along and liberates the empty city.

Last edited by notyoueither on 24-12-2003 at 05:16

	24-12-2003 06:35									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What an exploit... talk about being a merc!!

And then what if you should change your mind! The Free Companies, was it, during the period of Italian city-states? John Hawkwood, et al?

Very creative, nye.

	24-12-2003 09:09									#18
	Got spare money?

Hmmm - this may require a CoC to keep Poly from going the same route in the ISDG....

(Great read NYE. )

	24-12-2003 10:35									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Just go Anarchy.

	24-12-2003 21:19									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

holy crap! Look at that stack!!!

That is an ingenous strategy!!!! wow.

	25-12-2003 18:12									#21
	Suffering from ads?

You make me sick.

	31-12-2003 07:31									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ironically, stacks that large are not uncommon in MP, particularly with accelerated production on. I've actually never seen that tactic before, but it certainly is an interesting one.

So when's the fourth, and non-near Christmas tourney due to begin? I'm back from vacation and hungry for some SP-wenchlies.

	31-12-2003 07:46									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well the tactic would never work in an elim, but in elim you cant anbandon cities, and when if someone takes a city your dead. So this idea would not work in a elim game. It's an interesting idea but not that practical for the reason that u cannot produce any more units.

	31-12-2003 19:30									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba Just go Anarchy.

He mentioned that he stopped research after Iron Working and Horseback Riding, so I doubt he had another government. You may only go into anarchy if you have another government to switch to. So he was basically screwed, as even if you had captured the city with the Great Library the game would have figured support costs and chopped away at his stack before he was given the option of changing governments. I had a stack of a knights ready for just that instance and planned to take him out the turn he got hit by the support ax.

	01-01-2004 00:31									#25
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Swissy I had a stack of a knights ready for just that instance and planned to take him out the turn he got hit by the support ax.

Ouch! That doesn't sound pleasant.

	01-01-2004 21:33									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Swissy I had a stack of a knights ready for just that instance and planned to take him out the turn he got hit by the support ax.

Even if you're running a major deficit, wouldn't you only lose 1 unit per turn to to 'lack of support'? If that's the case, I don't think that "The Stack" would dwindle too quickly. But you'd still be able to wait him out.

Steven

	02-01-2004 11:34									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I won't even think of it unless I wanted to lose with style and since I play single player I have no one to impress but the AI. I believe the strategy to be counter-intuitive. (and we haven't heard the end result yet )

	04-01-2004 01:36									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That was the case, Vince. IMO the game was lost, but the opponent was late in coming to deliver the coup de grace. I didn't want to just quit, so I decided to try another way. A way that just might give a slim chance at victory if the RNG went my way big time.

I conceded the match rather than make him play it out after we went OOS in the wee hours of the morning. I did save a couple auto saves, and went back to it to see. The AI used his offensive troops to whittle down the stack steadily and mercilessly. I burned through his 5 or 6 best cities before there was not much left.

	04-01-2004 02:55									#29
	Remove this text

quote: Go barb.

You need a nice, padded room